Chinese purchase of Su-35

b787

Captain
Have you taken a look at the F-15J's cockpit vis-a-vis those of the J-11B and J-10A/B, and what does supercruise have anything to do with these?

The F-15Js, unlike J-11s, obtained BVR capability only in recent times.
that is false, the J-11 are not very different over a F-15J in BVR and the F-15Ks already have AESA radars
the F-15Js have already been operating their AIM-120 equivalent, the AAM-4
Basically performance wise and weapons wise, the F-15J is a match for the J-11, the latest J-11s at the most can fight the F-15K
Targeting and countermeasures
"The F-15K Slam Eagle can fly at a maximum speed of Mach 2.5."
The AN/APG-63 (V)1 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar fitted to the F-15K is equipped with air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities. The radar can track high-flying and low-flying targets, ground moving targets and sea surface targets. It provides high-resolution ground maps for identifying targets at long ranges.
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the Su-35 if really bought by China are expensive, in fact see the price

Russia will deliver another batch of 12 Sukhoi Su-30MK2 fighter aircraft under a recent contract worth about $450 million, a defense industry source told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

MOSCOW, August 21 (RIA Novosti) – Russia will deliver another batch of 12
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under a recent contract worth about $450 million, a defense industry source told RIA Novosti on Wednesday.

The contract was reportedly signed last week, and the Su-30s are expected to be delivered to Vietnam in 2014-2015.

“A similar modification, priced at $35-37 million per plane, had been earlier sold to China,” the source said.



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The cost of one Su-35 fighter is estimated at $83-85 million, which means that the total value of the contract may reach $2 billion.
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thunderchief

Senior Member
The J11 is also lighter (how much so is hard to say since varying sources disagree, but they all agree it is considerably lighter than the Su35), with significant internal changes over the baseline Flanker design.

Baseline Su-27 is significantly lighter then Su-35 . Planes tend to get heavier with improved avionics and engines. I doubt that J-11B weighs less then J-11A . What really matters is T/W and TVC .

And this automatically makes its aerodynamic performance so much worse it cannot even compete? Says who?

Limitations of delta-wing are well known . Add to that significantly worse T/W ... you get my picture.

Again, what do we know of the J20's aerodynamic performance, even with sub-optimal engines, to be able to tell one way or the other?

Prototype, delta-wing, stealth shaping and again worse T/W .

Neither have other planes, and their pilots have gone on record as stating their planes could do what the Su35 did with its display, but that they would not pull such risky manoeuvres at such low altitude just to put on a good show.

Yeah right :D Pilots tend to push their planes to the limit in demos. It doesn't need to be at low altitude or in air show . Fact is, nothing compares with Su-35 regarding maneuverability today. Not even F-22 or PAK FA .

Most western combat pilots are also highly dubious of the tactical relevance of a lot of the tricks Russian Flankers are famous for performing at air shows.

And most of Russian combat pilots are highly dubious of value of stealth in real air combat :D Fact is, both stealth and super maneuverability have they uses . Stealth is useful to enable you to fire first , super maneuverability to avoid incoming missiles.

Thus not being able to put on the same air show display is no indication on who will emerge victorious in a real fight.

Well ... you have recent Su-30MKI vs Typhoon exercise, also Su-30 vs F-22 in Malaysia . In close combat more maneuverable fighter wins . BVR is a different matter .

To make an determination of aerodynamic performance in real combat scenarios, you will need very detailed and comprehensive performance figures to make comparisons, and no one but the Chinese military have those.

I'm certain they do, that's why decided to purchase Su-35 . Btw, TASS confirmed the news, so it is 90% certain
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kurutoga

Junior Member
Registered Member
It does all the flankers made by China are equivalent to the Su-33/Su-30MKK performance wise with avionics and weapons similar to F-15s such as the F-15E or F-15k at best.
The Su-35 is closer to the Eurofighter and Rafale in aerodynamic performance and avionics in the league of the first Rafale versions

LOL. How do you prove what you just said.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
the Su-35 if really bought by China are expensive, in fact see the price
According to bmpd blog, chinese side managed to press in significant part of their avionics.

Integration is quite expensive&work-consuming process by itself.

p.s. also, comparacement with Su-30MK2 series(which are low-end solution even within Su-30 family, i.e. compared to much more advanced Su-30SM(MKI) series) will obviously be not in favor of Su-35(the most advanced fighter in current russian fleet, barely in service).
 

kurutoga

Junior Member
Registered Member
According to bmpd blog, chinese side managed to press in significant part of their avionics.

Integration is quite expensive&work-consuming process by itself.

I start to realize b787 is a pro-Jap troll and he/she has no proof whatsoever. No need to try convince him/her, just leads to unnecessary and worthless arguments.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Baseline Su-27 is significantly lighter then Su-35 . Planes tend to get heavier with improved avionics and engines. I doubt that J-11B weighs less then J-11A . What really matters is T/W and TVC .

The J11A achieved a fair amount of weight savings over the baseline Su27SK. The J11B is likely heavier than the J11A, but still likely significantly lighter than the Su35.

You need thurst and weight to calculate T/W ratio, you cannot do that when you don't know the weight! Without knowing the T/W of the two, you cannot reasonably conclude which has the better aerodynamic performance.

TVC is also overblown.

In a fight, its energy that matters the most. TVC can give you great nose pointing ability, but that comes at the cost of massive looses in energy (airspeed and altitude), making you far more vulnerable yourself.

Limitations of delta-wing are well known . Add to that significantly worse T/W ... you get my picture.

Except the J10 is a delta-canard, not a mere delta.

Everyone bar the Americans, including the Russians themselves, turned to delta-canards as the next evolutionary general aerodynamic configuration for their fighters post 3rd gen (which includes the baseline Flanker, on which the Su35 is based).

Prototype, delta-wing, stealth shaping and again worse T/W .

Again, delta-canard. Also, stealth shaping does not necessarily mean poor agility. It makes it harder to meet both design criteria, but is far from impossible.

Yeah right :D Pilots tend to push their planes to the limit in demos. It doesn't need to be at low altitude or in air show . Fact is, nothing compares with Su-35 regarding maneuverability today. Not even F-22 or PAK FA .

Believe what you want, but I tend not to call well respected pilots liars unless I have damn good evidence to support it.

Anyways, the Su27/35 was designed for medium to low speed manoeuvrability, in keeping with the general air combat theories and tactics of the time.

Since then, air combat theory and consensus has evolved to place far greater emphasis on trans-sonic performance, in which the delta-canard has distinct and significant advantages over legacy 3rd gen designs.

Air shows are typically held at medium to low speed, which plays to the Flanker's advantage.

In real combat, the delta-canards would be looking to play to their own strengths.

That is why I find serious conceptual faults with you trying to determine aerodynamic performance purely on a very few cherry picked parameters, to which you do not even have full and accurate data to make comparisons with!

And most of Russian combat pilots are highly dubious of value of stealth in real air combat :D

Is that why they are spending so much time and money developing their own stealth fighter? ;)

Fact is, both stealth and super maneuverability have they uses . Stealth is useful to enable you to fire first , super maneuverability to avoid incoming missiles.

If you are dodging missiles, even if you do survive the first shot, you are already in a really compromised situation.

Well ... you have recent Su-30MKI vs Typhoon exercise, also Su-30 vs F-22 in Malaysia . In close combat more maneuverable fighter wins . BVR is a different matter .

Different people say very different things about those exercises. The British are saying the ROEs favoured the Indians and that they were taking it easy on them.

There are certainly plenty of other exercises where both the Typhoon and Raptors claimed to have seriously kicked Flanker tails.

At best I would call all of those exercises inconclusive unless we know all the pertinent information about them regarding important determining factors like ROE, scenarios used and the aims of the exercises etc.

I'm certain they do, that's why decided to purchase Su-35 .

Is that why they are only buying a token amount and only after years and years of Russia aggressively pushing the type, with the PLAAF never having shown any real enthusiasm towards the deal?

This deal is as good an example of a politically driven buy as one you are likely to see.

The very long negotiation time is a good indication of the degree of resistance to it within the PLAAF.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
According to bmpd blog, chinese side managed to press in significant part of their avionics.

Integration is quite expensive&work-consuming process by itself.

p.s. also, comparacement with Su-30MK2 series(which are low-end solution even within Su-30 family, i.e. compared to much more advanced Su-30SM(MKI) series) will obviously be not in favor of Su-35(the most advanced fighter in current russian fleet, barely in service).

Do you have a link?

If true, this would fall right in line with my expectations and predictions about a major stumbling block being China wanting to use its own radar, avionics (and by extension, weapons suit).
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
Registered Member
Do you have a link?

If true, this would fall right in line with my expectations and predictions about a major stumbling block being China wanting to use its own radar, avionics (and by extension, weapons suit).
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"(...)Китай потребовал внести изменения в облик самолета: в частности, оборудовать кабину пилота своей авионикой(...)"

"China demanded changes in aircraft: particulary, fit cockpit with own avionics."
 

b787

Captain
According to bmpd blog, chinese side managed to press in significant part of their avionics.

Integration is quite expensive&work-consuming process by itself.

p.s. also, comparacement with Su-30MK2 series(which are low-end solution even within Su-30 family, i.e. compared to much more advanced Su-30SM(MKI) series) will obviously be not in favor of Su-35(the most advanced fighter in current russian fleet, barely in service).
it does not say that, it says
"Kommersant", the slip was due to the fact that, to determine the amount of purchased Su-35, China has demanded to make changes to the appearance of the aircraft: in particular, to equip the cockpit of its avionics (see. "Kommersant" dated May 19, 2014).
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He is implying the Chinese side managed to change some avionics. Is that the case?
who knows.

An oscillator with peak power output of 20 kW used in the passive phased array radar makes Irbis the most powerful radar control system in the world.

This puts the Sukhoi Su-35S radar system on par with the best state-of-the-art international designs, and ahead for most US and European active and passive phased array radars.
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It means it has a very very strong emission of radar waves basically using the square root law, it will be very hard to jam besides its long range
 

b787

Captain
LOL. How do you prove what you just said.
easy, show me a J-11 that super cruises? can you? no you can not but i can show you F-15Ks with AESA radars, F-15Js with AAM-5s and AAM-4s, the AIM-5 is a HMS cued missile with AIM-9X capabilities, making any superiority of J-11 in WVR in turn capability useless.

Rafale and Eurofighter supercruise, and the same Su-35
 
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