Chinese Geopolitics

Status
Not open for further replies.

solarz

Brigadier
It is good that China plans to discuss the disagreements re: territorial waters with the effected Southeast Asian countries. However, China should consider adhering to the International Law (UNCLOS) in settling the disputes in the South China Sea.

Do you realize that UNCLOS is the cause of the current SCS dispute, and not its solution? It is UNCLOS that defined EEZ based on emersed landmasses, which is what lead to the claiming of SCS islands. It's been repeated here ad nauseum, but China's SCS claims fully adheres to the rules set out in UNCLOS.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Which by definition is multilateral.

Sorry, when you start throwing words like "proxy" around you reveal a significant bias in the disussion, which is almost impossible to lead to open dialog.

Fact is, these nations have relations with the US developed over decades. From military alliances to strong trade agreements, etc. Calling them "proxies" in an effort to minimize them will not change things towards the PRCs benefit. To the contrary, such an attitude s likely to drive them further towards the US.

China is going to have to engage in such a manner, over years and years probably, to build trust and show the benefits for them to decide to engage with her.

It is wholly unrealistic to think that these other nations will otherwise walk away from their longstanding relations.

I am not talking about how China is engaging its neighbors. I am talking about China-US relations.

Let's examine the case of the Diaoyu Islands dispute.

Yes, the US has a defense treaty with Japan, but China had sent only civilian planes and vessels to the disputed area. There is no evidence that China has presented military force as an option in the dispute, despite the overeager cries of internet fanboys. Yet, the US has repeatedly brought up the issue of the defense treaty in relation with the dispute. What kind of diplomatic message does that send to China?

China also has a defense treaty with North Korea, but when have we ever seen China publicly assure Kim Jong-* that China would come to their aid if conflict broke out?

Would it not have been far better for Hagel to say that the defense treaty is irrelevant in the Diaoyu dispute because there is no evidence that China will resort to military force to resolve the issue? That would have been in line with their stated position of neutrality.

This is what I mean by "proxy". China has bilateral relations with both the US and Japan, but the US is conducting two kinds of diplomacy with China, each with a diametrically opposite message.
 

weig2000

Captain
From Financial Times

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


America’s view of China is fogged by liberal ideas

By Christopher Layne
The spiral of animosity is largely a creation of American policy, writes Christopher Layne

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Do the events that led to the outbreak of the first world war carry lessons for the Sino-American relationship? A century ago it was the ascent of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm II that unsettled the world; today a rising China is roiling east Asia. Then, as now, domestic politics on both sides played a role; one that is too easily neglected.

Why did Britain and Germany – linked by trade, dynastic ties, culture and religion – find themselves at war in August 1914? In part, as historian Paul Kennedy has argued, it was because London’s liberal ideology contributed to its perception of a growing German threat.

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Filtered through liberalism’s lens, Germany looked militarist, autocratic, mercantilist and statist – and contempt for the country’s political culture added to London’s disquiet. When the war began, it quickly came to be seen as a liberal crusade against “Prussianism”.

In this respect, today’s Sino-American rivalry resembles the pre-1914 Anglo-German antagonism. The speed of China’s growth worries US policy makers, as do the geopolitical implications of its economic transformation.

Across the American political spectrum, China’s success is attributed to its failure to play by the rules of free trade – for instance, its habit of manipulating the value of its currency and engaging in industrial espionage. Market-oriented liberalism is the dominant ideology in the US and, as in pre-1914 Britain, it shapes policy makers’ image of their supposed adversary.

American leaders view China as a nation whose undemocratic political system raises doubts about both the scope of its foreign policy ambitions and its trustworthiness as a diplomatic partner. Moreover, China’s combination of political authoritarianism and state-directed capitalism causes unease because it challenges the supposed universality of the American model of liberal democracy and free-market capitalism.

Aaron Friedberg, a Princeton University professor, says that for Americans, “the success of a mainland [Chinese] regime that blends authoritarian rule with market-driven economics is an affront.” For members of the US foreign-policy elite, the Chinese threat is not so much geopolitical as ideological.

Powerful external and domestic forces are putting the US and China on the road to confrontation. China aspires to be the regional hegemon in east (and southeast) Asia. The US – the incumbent hegemon, having dominated the region since 1945 – is blocking its path.

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Yet America’s predominance in east Asia contributes little to the security of a nation whose geography and unsurpassed military capabilities would anyway make it close to invulnerable. The US is the most secure great power in history – even more so if you factor in the deterrent effect of nuclear weapons. The true cause of American insecurity is not an imminent encroachment on its territory but the risk that US alliances – especially with Japan – will draw it into a regional conflict.

The US wants to maintain its east Asian dominance to keep the region’s markets open to American goods and its people open to liberal ideas. China threatens this openness, on which America’s security is wrongly believed to depend.

The liberal assumptions embedded in American foreign policy put the US at odds with China, and also heighten Beijing’s mistrust of Washington’s intentions and ambitions. The spiral of animosity that threatens to culminate in a confrontation between the two countries is in large part a creation of American policy.

As China’s rises, Washington has a last clear chance to avoid the looming Sino-American conflict. This would entail making real concessions on Taiwan and on China’s territorial claims in the East and South China Seas. It would also involve a commitment that Washington would not interfere in China’s internal affairs.

America’s political culture – based on exceptionalism, liberal ideology, and openness – is a big obstacle to coming to terms with a resurgent China. So is the fact that the foreign-policy elite remains wedded to American primacy, and refuses to accept that this will inevitably slip away because of the relative decline of US power.

History is also a problem. US policy makers are quick to invoke what they take to be the lessons of the 1930s while overlooking the causes of the first world war. David Calleo, a professor at Johns Hopkins, has observed that what we should learn from the earlier conflict “is not so much the need for vigilance against aggressors, but the ruinous consequences of refusing reasonable accommodation to upstarts”.

If the US wants to avoid a future conflict with China, it cannot allow liberal ideology to obstruct a reconciliation with an ever more powerful China. That is the real lesson of 1914.

The writer is a professor at Texas A&M University and author of the forthcoming ‘After the Fall’

The last few paragraphs are the author's concluding ones. This year is the centenary of World War I; the author inevitably refers to the lesson of 1914. It's been noted there is remarkably less interest in the US in WWI, compared with the passion and interest in WWII. I guess it has to do with the different roles that the US played in the two world wars. It's no exaggeration to say that the experiences of WWII have shaped much of the US's world view post-1945.
 
Last edited:

Blackstone

Brigadier
It's not about China dreaming of US not getting involved. It's about letting only the regional countries solved their own problems. Getting a third party involved means third party interests and that complicates matters. Haven't you seen how much mess the US created in the ME? Don't use religion to draw support for your point of view.

China's so-called "regional countries solving their own problems," is canard to impose unequal "bilateral" relations that guarantee China will be bigger, wealthier, and more powerful than its protagonists. Reasonable people can see it as the 21st Century version of Middle Kingdom's tributary state system, and honest brokers should be upfront about that. You could make legitimate arguments for China's tributary as relatively benign, but it's just another form of hegemony. I personally don't see Middle Kingdom's old tributary system as bad, since Pax America has the same overtones, but most of China's neighbors see it differently.
 

solarz

Brigadier
China's so-called "regional countries solving their own problems," is canard to impose unequal "bilateral" relations that guarantee China will be bigger, wealthier, and more powerful than its protagonists. Reasonable people can see it as the 21st Century version of Middle Kingdom's tributary state system, and honest brokers should be upfront about that. You could make legitimate arguments for China's tributary as relatively benign, but it's just another form of hegemony. I personally don't see Middle Kingdom's old tributary system as bad, since Pax America has the same overtones, but most of China's neighbors see it differently.

That's just your own, personal opinion, and it is not supported by any facts.

Of all the land border disputes settled by the PRC in the last 60 years, which parties have voiced dissatisfaction or complained about China "imposing" a resolution?

Frankly, you have some ideas of China that is based on pure fantasy.
 

delft

Brigadier
Should China retaliate Japan's support of Vietnam and Philippines by providing 6 to 12 Coast Guard cutters to Russia for their Kuril islands dispute? Another avenue of approach is allowing the Russian Coast Guard the use of Dalian port for their patrols. It would likely make Sino-Japanese relations worse, but it might also make Japan think twice about meddling in China's foreign affairs.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The article shows that Japan cannot solve its problems wrt the Southern Kurils as long as it remains a satellite of the US. You cannot blame Russia for this.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It is good that China plans to discuss the disagreements re: territorial waters with the effected Southeast Asian countries. However, China should consider adhering to the International Law (UNCLOS) in settling the disputes in the South China Sea.
This is where I get off the bus. Philippines, Vietnam, and Japan, aided and abetted by Western countries and the lame stream media castigate China for not "adhering to international law," but they gloss over the part of UNCLOS where nations are allowed to opt out of arbitration. Under that lawful use of UNCLOS, China can properly and legally tell the International Court of Justice to mind its own business (and she has). Why isn't that part of UNCLOS given equal treatment? Facts are China's sovereignty over Diaoyu and SCS islands go back a thousand years or more, and no amount of begging and trouble-making by Philippines, Vietnam, and Japan could change that. Furthermore, I'd argue Japanese-occupied Okinawa belongs to China too, but I'm probably in the minority on that.

BTW, the history of US as a Asia-Pacific power dates to the period of WW II.
US as Pacific power started when Commodore Perry forced Japan to open its ports by the right of might.

We sometimes forget that the USN defeated the IJN at various major battles in the Pacific, which helped turn the tide of the war. Also, the US assisted the allied Forces (inc. British, Australian, NZ) in Southeast Asia; and with the KMT and Communist to defeat the Japanese aggressors in China. The US Air Force also helped form during the WW II "Flying Tigers" in China; and the USAF pilots were actively involved in the air battles then. With this history of a benevolent and not a colonialist US, it is obvious that a number of Asian Nations & Australia will not forget their American friends.
Well said, I agree wholeheartedly.

screenshot_zps4d373df6.jpg


Looking at the world map, the Pacific Ocean which laps the Western Coast of the USA is definitely the responsibility of America. Also with Guam, an American territory, and defense treaties with some Asian countries and Australia, the Asia-Pacific is therefore within the sphere of American interest. China is also considered an important friend. As a Superpower it can contribute greatly to peace, economic progress and development of the Asia-Pacfic region.
China is America's strategic rival in the 21st Century, and Americans should have no delusions about that. It's best if the US could find a way to share power with China, since no economic/security system in Asia could work without her, it's equally important for China to accept no economic/security system could work without the United States, and accept her strong and continued presence in Asia. IMHO, America should reach out to China first, because she's the stronger of the two great powers. It's critical the US do so while she's still unquestionably stronger, because if China gets the upper hand, she may not feel the need to compromise with the US.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
China also has a defense treaty with North Korea, but when have we ever seen China publicly assure Kim Jong-* that China would come to their aid if conflict broke out?

Would it not have been far better for Hagel to say that the defense treaty is irrelevant in the Diaoyu dispute because there is no evidence that China will resort to military force to resolve the issue? That would have been in line with their stated position of neutrality.

This is what I mean by "proxy". China has bilateral relations with both the US and Japan, but the US is conducting two kinds of diplomacy with China, each with a diametrically opposite message.
Sorry, Sol, the US has a treaty with Japan.

iThe US can be neutral about the final disposition of the Islands as long as both parties agree...but still fulfill its treaty obligations with Japan should it be attacked.

As I have said numerous times, the only way China is going to overcome the longstanding relations and treaties that the US has with these other nations is to itself, over a long period of time, win their trust and show them that their interest co-align.

Somehow feeling it is unfair, somehow trying to act like these relationship either do not exist or "count," or ridiculous claims (as some have made) that the current US administratin's action are somehow "neocon," will do nothing to overcome what the US already has in place.

That's just the reality of the situation.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The article shows that Japan cannot solve its problems wrt the Southern Kurils as long as it remains a satellite of the US. You cannot blame Russia for this.

Japan is not a satellite of the US, but a vassal state. I'm at times critical of my own country for not keeping her boot on the neck of said vassal state, when it misbehaves and causes trouble.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
That's just your own, personal opinion, and it is not supported by any facts.

Of all the land border disputes settled by the PRC in the last 60 years, which parties have voiced dissatisfaction or complained about China "imposing" a resolution?

Frankly, you have some ideas of China that is based on pure fantasy.

We all have assholes, and they all stink. You may, of course, have your own opinion, and I'll give them all the consideration they're due.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top