Chinese Engine Development

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latenlazy

Brigadier
Lion said:
That means the plane is almost ready? I doubt the plane is going to do testing for another 3-4 years just to wait for the engine. And I doubt J-20 is going to commission into service with AL-31 engine. SOmething tells me J-20 has actually reach the late stage of development(Avionice and weapon testing) that included the engine. So far, nobody is able to comfirmed what kind of engine is running on J-20. Many has the assumption that the engine is AL-31 just based on the engine ignition and sprooling up.

Russian is quiet on engine use on J-20. You all see Russian do not keep quiet on J-10 and J-31 engine matter where they openly admit of their engine involved in these projects. Russian is totally not consulted when regards to J-20 testing engine. I doubt the engine on J-20 now is AL-31 engine. An nobody can explain why the engine petal on J-20 needs to be changed into silver color thing if its really AL-31 engine..

Nobody knows WS-15 engine core is based on what or a totally indigenuous design. Is it possible we see the engine sprooling up like AL-31 engine is because WS-15 core is based on the Russian design.

Another reason why J-20 is officially chosed by PLAAF is because the WS-15 engine is gurantee?
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Another 3-4 years of testing are in order. Just because they've started testing some pretty important and advanced systems doesn't mean they'll finish any time soon. This is especially true if a new engine gets installed somewhere in that interim.

Engine petals are the most trivial component of an engine, and easily the most customizable. Afterburner comparisons and the analysis on spooling sound remain the most convincing evidence we have of the engine's identity. The WS-15 had no say on whether SAC or CAC would have been chosen, as both fighters were intended to be powered by it.
 
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S

Skywatcher

Captain
You could probably get the J-20 into service by 2016 using the beta version of the WS-15.

Of course, the depends on if the PLAAF is willing to replace every WS-15 engine every 8 to 12 months, and take the risk of higher accident rates. Sure it'd be nice to have a fifth generation fighter a few years from now, but do you want to spend a lot of money (the WS-15 isn't going to come cheap) and lives while waiting for the WS-15 to mature.

The USAF could get away with that sort of risk taking in the early to mid Cold War. But in the 21st century, most air forces in general tend to be rather conservative about lives and maintenance costs (and even if they aren't, their rival services and civilian overlords will get on their case).
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Skywatcher said:
You could probably get the J-20 into service by 2016 using the beta version of the WS-15.

Of course, the depends on if the PLAAF is willing to replace every WS-15 engine every 8 to 12 months, and take the risk of higher accident rates. Sure it'd be nice to have a fifth generation fighter a few years from now, but do you want to spend a lot of money (the WS-15 isn't going to come cheap) and lives while waiting for the WS-15 to mature.

The USAF could get away with that sort of risk taking in the early to mid Cold War. But in the 21st century, most air forces in general tend to be rather conservative about lives and maintenance costs (and even if they aren't, their rival services and civilian overlords will get on their case).
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Unlikely. The engine isn't even finished testing yet, and it would take at least a year to establish initial production.
 
K

kroko

Senior Member
latenlazy said:
Unlikely. The engine isn't even finished ground testing yet, and it would take at least a year to establish initial production.
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Perhabs i corrected it for you, because AFAIK we havent seen any photo or image of it anywhere to this day, except the core.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
latenlazy said:
Another 3-4 years of testing are in order. Just because they've started testing some pretty important and advanced systems doesn't mean they'll finish any time soon. This is especially true if a new engine gets installed somewhere in that interim.

Engine petals are the most trivial component of an engine, and easily the most customizable. Afterburner comparisons and the analysis on spooling sound remain the most convincing evidence we have of the engine's identity. The WS-15 had no say on whether SAC or CAC would have been chosen, as both fighters were intended to be powered by it.
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That is still an assumption the engine on J-20 is AL-31 based just on sprooling. Then can anyone tells me why it need to change the nozzle petal to another type of silver colorish if the engine is only interim solution? My intuition tells me that is not AL-31 engine. J-20 already reaches quite advance stage of testing. Almost complete.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Lion said:
That is still an assumption the engine on J-20 is AL-31 based just on sprooling. Then can anyone tells me why it need to change the nozzle petal to another type of silver colorish if the engine is only interim solution? My intuition tells me that is not AL-31 engine. J-20 already reaches quite advance stage of testing. Almost complete.
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And you're not assuming? Perhaps those are the intended nozzles for the WS-15. There was also the theory that they were meant for IR suppression, etc etc. The point is that some assumptions have more evidence backing them than others.

kroko said:
Perhabs i corrected it for you, because AFAIK we havent seen any photo or image of it anywhere to this day, except the core.
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*Shrug* Can't say how far along or not it is. Lack of information is just that, lack of information. All I know is that it's been years since we first heard the core was entering high altitude testing.
 
L

Lion

Senior Member
latenlazy said:
And you're not assuming? Perhaps those are the intended nozzles for the WS-15. There was also the theory that they were meant for IR suppression, etc etc. The point is that some assumptions have more evidence backing them than others.


*Shrug* Can't say how far along or not it is. Lack of information is just that, lack of information. All I know is that it's been years since we first heard the core was entering high altitude testing.
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At least the silver nozzle petal is not assuming. Am I correct. Why bother to put WS-15 nozzle petal on AL-31 engine if the engine is only interim solution? if you think about its illogical if the engine is really AL-31. They need to do double job and re test everything once WS-15 is up with the silver petal. Again, your explanation is assuming and non logic.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
Lion said:
At least the silver nozzle petal is not assuming. Am I correct. Why bother to put WS-15 nozzle petal on AL-31 engine if the engine is only interim solution? if you think about its illogical if the engine is really AL-31. They need to do double job and re test everything once WS-15 is up with the silver petal. Again, your explanation is assuming and non logic.
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Well, if the theory that the silver nozzles are for IR reduction holds true, then it would be to expedite testing of those to get it out of the way/quicken iteration to test/improve the solution. It's not just about performance either, but also things like durability, maintenance, etc.

I think you're assuming all or nothing results from the testing process. Just because you may need to re-test with a different engine doesn't mean something can't be gained by going ahead. By your logic, it's illogical to test the J-20 because the engines aren't ready.

Anyways, that's just one theory. It could even just be entirely arbitrary. Note though that it's not just the sound analysis. The afterburners look a lot like the AL-31 too.

The bottom line is that your argument is that because the nozzles don't look like the AL-31s, we must conclude that it is not the AL-31s, which is still not evidence that it is the WS-15.

We're saying that 1)the nozzles aren't the most reliable component that we can use to ID the engine with, and 2) other evidence more important to the identity of an engine indicate it's the AL-31.
 
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Engineer

Engineer

Major
thunderchief said:
2020. for LRIP J-20 with WS-15 ? Sounds pretty ambitious to me . You would need to integrate airframe , avionics (radar) , engine and software in such short time .
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Once WS-15 becomes ready, only those aspects that are related to engines need to be retested. The main ones I can think of are flight envelop and flight control system tests. The rest can be accomplished by the current prototypes.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
Lion said:
That means the plane is almost ready? I doubt the plane is going to do testing for another 3-4 years just to wait for the engine. And I doubt J-20 is going to commission into service with AL-31 engine. SOmething tells me J-20 has actually reach the late stage of development(Avionice and weapon testing) that included the engine.
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The engineers could have conducted avionics and weapon testings first to get them out of the way while waiting on the engines.

Lion said:
So far, nobody is able to comfirmed what kind of engine is running on J-20. Many has the assumption that the engine is AL-31 just based on the engine ignition and sprooling up.

Russian is quiet on engine use on J-20. You all see Russian do not keep quiet on J-10 and J-31 engine matter where they openly admit of their engine involved in these projects. Russian is totally not consulted when regards to J-20 testing engine. I doubt the engine on J-20 now is AL-31 engine. An nobody can explain why the engine petal on J-20 needs to be changed into silver color thing if its really AL-31 engine.
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Acoustic analysis have been performed showing the engines are Al-31. That analysis has withstood various attacks and have not been overturned.

Lion said:
Nobody knows WS-15 engine core is based on what or a totally indigenuous design. Is it possible we see the engine sprooling up like AL-31 engine is because WS-15 core is based on the Russian design.
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The core affects how powerful the engine will be. Using the Al-31 core will only give you an Al-31 class engine, rather than a F-119 class engine.

Lion said:
Another reason why J-20 is officially chosed by PLAAF is because the WS-15 engine is gurantee?
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Not that I know of.
 
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