Chinese Engine Development

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latenlazy

Brigadier
ChongqingHotPot92 said:
If the West cuts off China's access to LEAP-1C, while CJ-1000 remains 2-3 years away (God knows that kind of problems would delay it further) you talking about halting C919 production line until CJ-1000 ready. I remember that happened to J-11B, but it last only less than a year before issues with the early WS-10s were resolved. But 2-3 years is a lot. There has to be back-up option, so WS-20 could be it until C919 is ready (also, I think WS-20 is has a slightly higher thrust than LEAP-1C and CJ-1000, but it is just a lot more fuel guzzling). Maybe a monkey version of C919 should be the Plan B. A C919 platform using WS-20 could also be redeveloped into next generation submarine hunter and AWACS.

As for C929 and CJ-2000, folks would have to wait, but a re-designed C929 with four WS-20 engines modeled after A340-300 and Il-96 could be the stop-gap option (most importantly, Xi's PLAAF One and PLAAF aerial command aircraft) before CJ-2000 were to be finally certified. It is the difference between A340 and A330 with the latter being more competitive in the civilian market.
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You would need to test and certify the AF1300 with the C919 which itself could take 1-2 years and customers may refuse to take the order with an inferior engine. If the Leap engine really did get sanctioned (dicey proposition since it’s not wholly owned by an American company) you would still be better off waiting for the CJ-1000 to finish rather than ship a product that customers don’t want to use.

Honestly with the level of technological development today China’s not really in a place where it needs to soak up 2-3 year delays with half baked backup options. If sanctions come just work overtime to finish the CJ-1000 faster.
 
ChongqingHotPot92

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member
Registered Member
latenlazy said:
You would need to test and certify the AF1300 with the C919 which itself could take 1-2 years and customers may refuse to take the order with an inferior engine. If the Leap engine really did get sanctioned (dicey proposition since it’s not wholly owned by an American company) you would still be better off waiting for the CJ-1000 to finish rather than ship a product that customers don’t want to use.

Honestly with the level of technological development today China’s not really in a place where it needs to soak up 2-3 year delays with half baked backup options. If sanctions come just work overtime to finish the CJ-1000 faster.
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Makes sense. Anyhow, both the WS-20 and CJ-1000 are game changers. It is one thing to have low-bypass turbofan engines for fighter jets and bombers. It is another to have high-bypass turbofans for commercial aircrafts and strategic transports. With CJ-1000 starting its test fly and WS-20 finishing its test fly, really hope nothing goes wrong. These two engines determine whether or not China would not only become self-reliant on commercial aircrafts and transports, but also withstanding Western sanctions that will come only with a matter of time.
 
A

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
ChongqingHotPot92 said:
As for C929 and CJ-2000, folks would have to wait, but a re-designed C929 with four WS-20 engines modeled after A340-300 and Il-96 could be the stop-gap option (most importantly, Xi's PLAAF One and PLAAF aerial command aircraft) before CJ-2000 were to be finally certified. It is the difference between A340 and A330 with the latter being more competitive in the civilian market.
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Previously, I was thinking that perhaps China could buy a couple Il-96s from Russia and have them retrofitted as Xi's presidental transport aircrafts and airborne command post (doomsday) aircrafts. But considering the pathetic production rate of the Il-96s over the past 3 decades, and now that Western sanctions forcing Russian airlines to demand large numbers of Il-96s in a hurry, I guess it would be very difficult for China to get any Il-96s for the aforementioned purposes.
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
ACuriousPLAFan said:
Previously, I was thinking that perhaps China could buy a couple Il-96s from Russia and have them retrofitted as Xi's presidental transport aircrafts and airborne command post (doomsday) aircrafts. But considering the pathetic production rate of the Il-96s over the past 3 decades, and now that Western sanctions forcing Russian airlines to demand large numbers of Il-96s in a hurry, I guess it would be very difficult for China to get any Il-96s for the aforementioned purposes.
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Given the C919 and C929’s prominence in China’s portfolio of future projects it would be politically heresy not to use domestically produced planes when possible.
 
ChongqingHotPot92

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
Previously, I was thinking that perhaps China could buy a couple Il-96s from Russia and have them retrofitted as Xi's presidental transport aircrafts and airborne command post (doomsday) aircrafts. But considering the pathetic production rate of the Il-96s over the past 3 decades, and now that Western sanctions forcing Russian airlines to demand large numbers of Il-96s in a hurry, I guess it would be very difficult for China to get any Il-96s for the aforementioned purposes.
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The case of the Il-96 is a prime example of inferior technology for the sake of self-reliance. It is supposed to be in the same class as the A340-200, but while the A340-200 had a range of 12,500 km, the Il-96 had only 10,000. Also, the PD-90A engines lacked FADEC. Yes, I agree that Air China could have bought several Il-96s for CPC leaders, but that would be it. Given how gas guzzling Il-96s were, A340-200s were clearly better options. I did take an Air China A340-200 from Guangzhou (the old Baiyun Airport) to Beijing (yup, the old Terminal 1 at PEK) back in 2000, and I had positive memories of the plane. As with China's potential four-engine aircraft, if either the CJ1000 or WS-20 could have their thrusts guaranteed at no less than 34,000 lbf, then you could have a four-engined C929. However, another thing to make sure is that the range does not fall under 12,000 km (ideally 13,000+ km).
 
L

latenlazy

Brigadier
ChongqingHotPot92 said:
The case of the Il-96 is a prime example of inferior technology for the sake of self-reliance. It is supposed to be in the same class as the A340-200, but while the A340-200 had a range of 12,500 km, the Il-96 had only 10,000. Also, the PD-90A engines lacked FADEC. Yes, I agree that Air China could have bought several Il-96s for CPC leaders, but that would be it. Given how gas guzzling Il-96s were, A340-200s were clearly better options. I did take an Air China A340-200 from Guangzhou (the old Baiyun Airport) to Beijing (yup, the old Terminal 1 at PEK) back in 2000, and I had positive memories of the plane. As with China's potential four-engine aircraft, if either the CJ1000 or WS-20 could have their thrusts guaranteed at no less than 34,000 lbf, then you could have a four-engined C929. However, another thing to make sure is that the range does not fall under 12,000 km (ideally 13,000+ km).
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I really don’t know what the point of talking about a 4 engined aircraft is tbh. We already know the CJ-2000 is in development concurrently with the C929. It’s very unlikely that the C929 would ever need to be redesigned with 4 engines (not a trivial change) when a prototype hasn’t even flown yet. The C929’s and CJ-2000’s timelines are much better aligned than the C919s was with the CJ-1000.
 
lcloo

lcloo

Captain
What happen if US impose ban on sale of engines suddently? Will production of C919 stop for next few years until CJ-1000A come onlines in 2027 or 2030?

Check below the production of Leap-1 engines for A-320 and B-737 max:-
In 2019, LEAP production rose to 1,736 engines, orders and commitments reached 1,968 amid the 737 MAX groundings, compared with 3,211 for 2018, for a stable backlog of 15,614 (compared to 15,620).
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CFM expects to produce 1,400 LEAP engines in 2020, including an average of 10 weekly LEAP-1Bs for the Boeing 737 Max.
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By March 2022, CFM intended to output 2,000 engines in 2023, up from 845 deliveries in 2021.
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1. Base on 2018 production, the engine manufacturer is able to make 61 Leap-1A/B/C engines per week, for A320, B-737Max and C919.

2. How would COMAC issued a purchase order (PO) for engines? Did they issued a PO for 2 engines plus a spare for just in time delivery for roll-out of a new C-919? Or did they issued a block purchase order for hundreds of engines to be delivered as soon as possible?

3. What is the minimum quantity per PO demanded by engine manufacturer? Remember the more engines per each PO, the cheaper would be net price per unit, i.e. going by normal trade practices.

4. Lastly, we don't know exactly, but for a wiseman facing possible ban, we should expect COMAC as well as the engine maker (for profits), to make and deliver as many engines as possible, plus all schedule maintenance parts, so that COMAC would have stock of engines to last for next few years' production.

5. What if COMAC has been taking deliveries like 10 to 20 engines per week started from early last year to present?
 
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sunnymaxi

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
minusone said:
Many were surprised by the civillian conversion of Ws-20 to AEF-1300 given CJ1000a development.

But then it makes sense, CJ1000a will keep the west suppliers sort of happy and give green-light to the certification of C919 powered by domestic chinese turbofan.

And then AEF-1300 is there in case sh*t went wrong on epic scale.
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CJ-1000A all major components are domestically produced. it was an old news. i have cleared many times on Engine thread. include post some of suppliers names. but due to security concern i usually avoid posting suppliers names. coz in which many universities involved.

it was initial planning to add western suppliers due to efficiency and maturity of their subsystems. but later on plan dropped off.

there is so much misinformation available on weibo. avoid weibo at any cost except some trustable accounts.
 
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