Chinese Engine Development

tphuang

tphuang

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lilzz said:
Gas turbine for ship has easier spec. If the turbine stop briefly, the ship still stay afloat whereas the plane would face the possibility of fall off from the sky. So, it's likely the design is acceptable for ship but not for the plane.

Instead on just relying on Shenyang Liming alone to fix the problem, one thing they would do set up multiple design/manufacturing centers in Chengdu and Xian and allow multiple teams to tackle the issue concurrently. It would create redundancy and hopefully one of team would come through.
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It's not just Shenyang liming, they are the principal stakeholder here, but they have suppliers all over China. If they suppliers don't produce parts that are up to standard, you are going to have problems too. For example, Xian already produces 1/3 of the parts on WS-10A. Do you really think all the faults lie with Shenyang? This is a learning experience for everyone.
 
L

lilzz

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
It's not just Shenyang liming, they are the principal stakeholder here, but they have suppliers all over China. If they suppliers don't produce parts that are up to standard, you are going to have problems too. For example, Xian already produces 1/3 of the parts on WS-10A. Do you really think all the faults lie with Shenyang? This is a learning experience for everyone.
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Another thing they could do for this manufacturing parts problem is partner up with Auto industry which had alot of western standard in terms of auto parts manufacturing tech. Maybe the AVIC can learn one thing or two how the advanced auto manufacturing works in terms of tests of screening out weak parts and reliabilty test.

I think the Auto industry in China is quite advance dure to many western companies involvement. AVIC can learn something from them, the standards and practices.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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lilzz said:
Another thing they could do for this manufacturing parts problem is partner up with Auto industry which had alot of western standard in terms of auto parts manufacturing tech. Maybe the AVIC can learn one thing or two how the advanced auto manufacturing works in terms of tests of screening out weak parts and reliabilty test.

I think the Auto industry in China is quite advance dure to many western companies involvement. AVIC can learn something from them, the standards and practices.
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aerospace is slightly behind the auto industry, but really not by that much. They actually got a lot of work doing parts for Boeing and Airbus + they are assembling CF-34, so it's not like they are not working with the west.
Lundblad.Jeff said:
I think it's safe to say that China will not abandon the WS-10a. Too much time and money has been invested in the project, and too many fighters/engine variants are dependent on it.

One question I'd like to raise is this: Has China reverse engineered the AL-31F/FN to fill in the gap before the WS-10a is ready?

I know the WS-10a is NOT an AL-31F copy, I'm not suggesting that. (It is based off the CFM-56 core).

But we can see that J-11Bs use AL-31F engines.....where are they coming from? Based on how many engines China has purchased from Russia, can they build 95 J-11s+25 J-11Bs and still have enough for spares?

Can they build 100+ J-10A/S fighters (using AL-31FN), and still have enough left for J-10B prototypes and spares?

I don't know enough about it to say for sure. Someone on this forum once assured me that the J-11B fighter used WS-10A because there simply were not enough AL-31F engines for them. Now that we know that most J-11B's are equipped with AL-31F, as are the J-10B prototypes, and J-11BS prototypes....where are all these AL-31s engines coming from?
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well, they did buy a lot of spares for the existing flanker fleet, so that would explain a lot of where the engines come from. As for AL-31 assembly, they pretty easily could have gotten it in the past, but I think they pissed off the Russians a little bit with J-11B and WS-10A, so it might cost more now. But if you think about it, why would they want to assemble AL-31? They already have an engine that they are trying to figure out how to correct. China is capable of building an advanced turbofan engine, so it doesn't need that technology. If it needs AL-31 immediately, it will just buy more.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
On the other hand, it's been stated that there are J-10s fitted with WS-10As already, though I don't know if such units have been deployed.

And the AL-31F purchases could easily be political.
 
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lilzz

Banned Idiot
Ws9

unlike the WS10A, the WS9 is already a mature engine. What's feasibility of putting the WS9 on the FC-1 . The FC-1 is an economic platform, therefore it make sense if the WS9 fitted to the plane. With that configuration, FC-1 can be immediately exported to countries like Venezula, iran, sudan, burma, North Korea...etc.


And how about developing a supersonic bomber with stealth shape and use 4 of those WS-9s?
 
Semi-Lobster

Semi-Lobster

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Re: Ws9

lilzz said:
unlike the WS10A, the WS9 is already a mature engine. What's feasibility of putting the WS9 on the FC-1 . The FC-1 is an economic platform, therefore it make sense if the WS9 fitted to the plane. With that configuration, FC-1 can be immediately exported to countries like Venezula, iran, sudan, burma, North Korea...etc.


And how about developing a supersonic bomber with stealth shape and use 4 of those WS-9s?
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The WS-9 is not a very powerful engine, if used on the FC-1 the performance of the aircraft would drop significantly. Also its too big. They would have to completely redesign the aircraft to accommodate the bigger WS-9.

The PLAAF is also not interested in stealth bombers or high speed bombers, as evident by their refusal to order the Tu-22M or Tu-160
 
Baibar of Jalat

Baibar of Jalat

Junior Member
Can someone briefly summarise, the progress of ws 10a engine during last year. I ask because I have read forums (some with members from SDF) that stated it is in service on J11B then now I here its not in active service.

I am sure Tphuang showed an article on some forum saying its in production (not sure where article is).
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
Baibar of Jalat said:
Can someone briefly summarise, the progress of ws 10a engine during last year. I ask because I have read forums (some with members from SDF) that stated it is in service on J11B then now I here its not in active service.

I am sure Tphuang showed an article on some forum saying its in production (not sure where article is).
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According to that interview with the WS-10A designer (I'll have to dig it up) the J-11Bs use a mixture of WS-10A and AL-31Fs, which could signal production trouble as much as a desire to use up surplus AL-31Fs or even other considerations.
 
C

challenge

Banned Idiot
Re: Ws9

Semi-Lobster said:
The WS-9 is not a very powerful engine, if used on the FC-1 the performance of the aircraft would drop significantly. Also its too big. They would have to completely redesign the aircraft to accommodate the bigger WS-9.

The PLAAF is also not interested in stealth bombers or high speed bombers, as evident by their refusal to order the Tu-22M or Tu-160
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WS-9 is early 60's TF engine, T:W ratio at 6.2 is quite low,(RB-199 T:W ratio 7:1)no wonder air international judging from her flight demonstration in 1999,claim the jet is under power.
 
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