Chinese Engine Development

tphuang

Lieutenant General
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there really is no need to panic or anything like that. WS-10A really is China's first attempt at developing its own advanced turbofan engine, so it's bound to have problems. If they didn't get the help from RR, they'd probably be seeing this much problem in WS-9 also. Recently, I've even read that Kunlun series is having problems. What do that mean? There are a lot of changes and improvements that are needed. But they've gone too far with WS-10A, they are not going to turn back. Too many other projects are dependent on it.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Well, here's an analogy, In semicondcutor chip design field, a design has made and prototype, the first silicon come back and tested, it works. But later when try for masss production the yield is only 40%.
The designer engineer complain it must be the process issue, therefore the process engineer should fix it. Then process engineer counter back hey your design works but the margins are too low therefore yield is low.


A design works doesn't mean anything, the most important aspect is how much margin you have above the spec. Because variance of manufacturing process can throw a weak design, with little margin off easily. A design with good margin will buffer against those manufacturing variance. hence good yield.

majority of time, if the yield is low, the design engineer has to modify the design to introduce more redundancy or margin for the chip. That usually solves the probelm.

So, that bring back the questions, how much margin does the WS10A design has? All indications seem like it's weak design with little margin.

Like the chip design case, I think this WS10A has to be modified.

Another option is wait for WS-15 which has designed with higher spec, so the WS-15 design would easily meet WS-10A critieria, therefore use the overkill of the superior design of WS-15 to generate good yield. (the WS-15 design should give very good margin when stacking against the WS-10A spec)

Completely irrelevant Electronic is not the same as Mechanical Design, In Mechanical design,You test and modify and test again over and over until you perfect the design and identify the weak link
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Well, they don't have another 10 yrs to keep on working on the WS10A until it's perfect.

Even if they have 10 more yrs still no guarantee the current design of WS10A will have that type of yield and quality. Take a look at RUssian, after all those yrs of assistance from the west, it's engine is lacking behind.

I wonder what's the backup plan? If WS10A can't come through, would they focus more on the WS-15 which is obviously a different design?
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Well, they don't have another 10 yrs to keep on working on the WS10A until it's perfect.

Even if they have 10 more yrs still no guarantee the current design of WS10A will have that type of yield and quality. Take a look at RUssian, after all those yrs of assistance from the west, it's engine is lacking behind.

I wonder what's the backup plan? If WS10A can't come through, would they focus more on the WS-15 which is obviously a different design?
I feel like problems with the manufacturing process can't be that large a setback. The PLAF seems very careful and well planned. Given that they only purchased a set amount of those extra AL-31FNs, I would guess that however long it takes for them to use those up is how long they think the problems with WS-10As development will persist. There's also that chart indicating the intention to carry the WS-10's design even further, so maybe instead they could move to that (though I am unsure about the accuracy or credibility of that chart)?
 

Skywatcher

Captain
Considering that they have fitted WS-10As already onto the J-10 (according to that interview with the designer), it seems to be reasonably mature. The fitting of AL-31Fs onto the J-11B could be due to a desire to use up remaining spare engines or the like.
 

Lion

Senior Member
By the way, order of additional 100 AL-31FN engines are too little for PLAAF appetite. I believe more or less PLAAF will need a far larger number of J-10 in service. 100 egnies order is just a stop gap.

If the order is 300-400 engines, more or less I believe they will abandon WS-10A. Don't forget, they still need additional engines for each J-10 as spares o backup. There is a limit to overhauling of a engines.
 

tphuang

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By the way, order of additional 100 AL-31FN engines are too little for PLAAF appetite. I believe more or less PLAAF will need a far larger number of J-10 in service. 100 egnies order is just a stop gap.

If the order is 300-400 engines, more or less I believe they will abandon WS-10A. Don't forget, they still need additional engines for each J-10 as spares o backup. There is a limit to overhauling of a engines.

They are taking a wait and see approach on WS-10A. They bought 125 AL-31FN, which is basically 2 years of production + spares. They will hopefully have solved the problems by then. It took WS-9 over 3 years to go from design to production certification. So, it would likely take longer for WS-10A.

Well, they don't have another 10 yrs to keep on working on the WS10A until it's perfect.

Even if they have 10 more yrs still no guarantee the current design of WS10A will have that type of yield and quality. Take a look at RUssian, after all those yrs of assistance from the west, it's engine is lacking behind.

I wonder what's the backup plan? If WS10A can't come through, would they focus more on the WS-15 which is obviously a different design?
China would be glad if WS-10A reaches AL-31's maturity right now. There is no backup plan, WS-10A better work, they are already developing gas turbine and high bypass turbofan engine from it. They are also pretty close to finishing the work on an upgraded variant on WS-10A. Too much invested.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Does the upgraded variant just have higher TW ratio or does it have thrust vectoring, cooled exhaust plume or some other kind of special feature?
 

Mashan

New Member
They are taking a wait and see approach on WS-10A. They bought 125 AL-31FN, which is basically 2 years of production + spares. They will hopefully have solved the problems by then. It took WS-9 over 3 years to go from design to production certification. So, it would likely take longer for WS-10A.


China would be glad if WS-10A reaches AL-31's maturity right now. There is no backup plan, WS-10A better work, they are already developing gas turbine and high bypass turbofan engine from it. They are also pretty close to finishing the work on an upgraded variant on WS-10A. Too much invested.

Totally agree on the viewpoint. Also when all is done and the WS10A becomes reliable and into stable production. The process itself will produce a team of strong next generation engine designers. Also the team will have the confident to attack more advance engine design. At the same time they will have the full support of the government. Also the WS10A core will be used for other application with full user confidence on the design team.
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
China would be glad if WS-10A reaches AL-31's maturity right now. There is no backup plan, WS-10A better work, they are already developing gas turbine and high bypass turbofan engine from it. They are also pretty close to finishing the work on an upgraded variant on WS-10A. Too much invested.

Gas turbine for ship has easier spec. If the turbine stop briefly, the ship still stay afloat whereas the plane would face the possibility of fall off from the sky. So, it's likely the design is acceptable for ship but not for the plane.

Instead on just relying on Shenyang Liming alone to fix the problem, one thing they would do set up multiple design/manufacturing centers in Chengdu and Xian and allow multiple teams to tackle the issue concurrently. It would create redundancy and hopefully one of team would come through.
 
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