AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Mexico one of the top 5 intellectual property violators in the world...
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Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
Mexico one of the top 5 intellectual property violators in the world...
superdog
Junior Member
Oh I'm sure China won't care GE is American if GE want to share their newest engine tech with China. On the other hand, the United States Congress will care a lot about this country called China, because China is not Mexico, or India, or Japan. Please don't be naive and think that GE won't work with China like they worked with Mexico because China has produced knockoff iphones or that their J-11 looks like Su-27. No, China is being "isolated" on sensitive technologies because they are "commies" and possibly the biggest challenger to the US-dominated global status quo in the foreseeable future. The US ain't stupid, they wouldn't mind working with countries/companies that will never be able to threaten their core business, and they would never closely collaborate with countries/companies that has the potential to become their main competitor, at least not with any sensitive technologies involved.
Let me say this again, China didn't choose to isolate itself from others, China is being isolated by others, at first because of ideologies, and then because they fear that this country is too capable in becoming their major competitor. I know this board put restrictions on political discussions so I won't speak too much into this, but it is impossible to understand why China is doing what it does in aerospace/engine development without taking into account at least some politics. Any comment on the overall strategy of China Engine development without considering China's political situation is invariably detached from reality.
By the way, people in Mexico can feel free to be happy and proud that they contributed to some of the newest western engine developments. Nobody said they should feel bad because they aren't better than China. On the other hand, Mexico's participation in these projects is NOT an indicator that their aerospace industry is anywhere near China's in terms of overall capability. You're making a very vague claim ("they're not behind in many ways") with slim evidence -- some involvement in engine part development/manufacturing is far from being able design, build, or improve a complete engine, not to mention an aircraft. This is not a proper comparison.
Like I said before... it is disgusting on how members in this forum... clearly a China basher, who would go all out bashing the nation right from the start at all opportunity he/she had, and with absolutely no hard evidence to their claims... except to link some Russian or Mexican site. And if you really look into those sites... it is like salesmen talk.
Secondly... it is very very high tech in terms of engine development and manufacturing... also aerospace aircraft design like the stealth system and things like that.... it make me wonder, how some one (if all these bashers said is true) like China who are low down in technology and needed to rely in stealing foreign technology could copy, reverse engineer or stuff like that of those systems and mass produce them like no body's business. Wouldn't that actually make China's technology at least on par with these nations and if that is the case, why the hell would the Chinese copy those items and not design their own.
Having a blueprint to a sophisticated system is actually useless when you do not have the industry base, knowledge, etc to understand them and integrate them into your manufacturing system. And if the Chinese could do all those... it would be easier to just create the system themselves.
All these are common sense... but seemed like some people simply lack of those... so... I think it is pretty disgusting.
And those who say that the stealth programs in China are actually hacks and copies of the Americans... I would like to ask... how the hell that happen? And how much different can a stealth aircraft actually look (physically) without compromising stealth capability. And as to the engine department... claims that the WS-10A is actually 70% of the AL-31... lets look at it this way... how the hell the Russian know? Did they actually get their hand on a WS-10A? Or what? It is useless to quote a salesman or designer, or whoever in the Russian engine maker or a reporter who heard from some experts (but refuse to state that experts)... all these are just hearsay.
Plus I did mentioned before, one of the most important thing in engine development is material science. So you have a blueprint to an engine... but how the hell do you upgrade your material science so that that blueprint's design can be realized.
Pretty common sense thing here... but doesn't seemed too common sense to some people out there. Who actually pull in examples from... Russia, then Mexican... and then India.... and whatsnot...
Disgusting like I say.
Secondly... it is very very high tech in terms of engine development and manufacturing... also aerospace aircraft design like the stealth system and things like that.... it make me wonder, how some one (if all these bashers said is true) like China who are low down in technology and needed to rely in stealing foreign technology could copy, reverse engineer or stuff like that of those systems and mass produce them like no body's business. Wouldn't that actually make China's technology at least on par with these nations and if that is the case, why the hell would the Chinese copy those items and not design their own.
Having a blueprint to a sophisticated system is actually useless when you do not have the industry base, knowledge, etc to understand them and integrate them into your manufacturing system. And if the Chinese could do all those... it would be easier to just create the system themselves.
All these are common sense... but seemed like some people simply lack of those... so... I think it is pretty disgusting.
And those who say that the stealth programs in China are actually hacks and copies of the Americans... I would like to ask... how the hell that happen? And how much different can a stealth aircraft actually look (physically) without compromising stealth capability. And as to the engine department... claims that the WS-10A is actually 70% of the AL-31... lets look at it this way... how the hell the Russian know? Did they actually get their hand on a WS-10A? Or what? It is useless to quote a salesman or designer, or whoever in the Russian engine maker or a reporter who heard from some experts (but refuse to state that experts)... all these are just hearsay.
Plus I did mentioned before, one of the most important thing in engine development is material science. So you have a blueprint to an engine... but how the hell do you upgrade your material science so that that blueprint's design can be realized.
Pretty common sense thing here... but doesn't seemed too common sense to some people out there. Who actually pull in examples from... Russia, then Mexican... and then India.... and whatsnot...
Disgusting like I say.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Let us do this, i guess we are not going any where, i have never say we are better, i said we have another policy in aerospace, as such this has allowed to get into important projects, as such we have different objectives.
Mexico`s aerospace objective is be one of the 10 top suppliers in the world by 2020 and export 12 billion on related aircraft parts and become one of the top centers of aircraft design regardless if it is pure mexican or Foreign owned.
Mexico is currently the top destination for aerospace manufacturing investments in the world.
Source
By 2020 the aerospace industry of Mexico will be one of the in the world.
China they are doing the same, any way we are going off topic, so i can tell you to finish the argument, our aerospace capabilities have grown and we are engaged in the design of modern top noch engines, yes as junior members, true but in many ways we are not a minor nation in aerospace now, but a middle power with a very smart policy to get investment.
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
China expressed "deep regret" Thursday over a recent report from the US which lists China as a "priority watch country" for intellectual property rights (IPR) violations.
source
now if we are not so trusted why
Mexico is currently the top destination for aerospace manufacturing investments in the world
see source
The source is US department of state.
Sure i do not defend that there are IPR violators in Mexico, but in aerospace we have not done it
Any we are going off topic so here i finish my explanation you can keep your points i will mine, you will have to agree to disagree
superdog
Junior Member
No name shanzhai companies making iphone ripoff to sell for cheap
--- Yes, that can be described as "making small money by illegal ways".
Speed up development and deployment time by building and improving on the original Su-27 platform
Referencing the CFM-56 when developing Taihang
Learn from the structure and scale of existing, successful foreign models in developing indigenous weapons
--- No, these are not "making small money by illegal ways", not at all.
You know nothing about Chinese aerospace industry development if you think it is as simple as stealing foreign blueprints/reverse-engineer and then make ripoffs to "make small money".
Even for cellphones, where lots of small-money-making-ripoffs does exist, there are also serious world-stage players such as Huawei and Lenovo. What does it tell us? It tells us that it is unwise to ignore the actual advancement in technology and capability just because there has been reverse-engineering and copying. Nobody is suggesting reverse-engineering and copying should go on forever, but they are often a necessary step for players who has fallen behind to rapidly catch up. This is not unique to China, in fact the US itself has never protected the copyright of foreign work until 1891.
Equation
Lieutenant General
Didn't Edward Snowden has taught us that the cyber security issues are a world wide problem, NOT a Chinese "security theft" problem? Trust me the US are doing everything they can to get their hands on China's high tech as well. Just because it's not reported by any western media it doesn't mean that it does NOT exist or on going.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
It's pretty simple. No one thinks Mexico can do anything without someone else's help. If the US cut-off Mexico, Mexico wouldn't survive on its own. That's why they can "trust" Mexico.
maybe mexico can one day incorporate what it learns from being part of the west's aerospace supply chain to build up its domestic aerospace industry. maybe one day it can design and sell its own turbofans and commercial aircraft so that the lion's share of the profit is not taken by its american partners. if what you are saying is true, these are plausible eventualities, but in the meantime, i don't believe that the americans have shared with anyone all their know-how on engineering cutting edge turbofans, nor do i believe that mexico is allowed to use what it has learned to benefit itself economically outside the approval of the u.s.
china, unlike mexico, is not politically alligned with the west. mexico does not seek wider influence and is happy to rely on the u.s., china however wants to grow its influence and challenge the american hegemony to a degree. do you think china will be happy in an arrangement where it gets some tech transfers under heavily restrictive conditions while the west keeps the crucial knowledge and makes the big bucks? even if china could be happy with such an arrangement, i don't think the west would trust china to not want to compete against them one day. (and rightly so)
think about how big china is, as its economy matures, think about how much cash there is to be made and how much power the chinese state will wield with such an economy. why would they settle for playing second banana to the west?
western aerospace firms will also work with china to reduce their costs but they will not share even what they might share with india or mexico with china. taking what you say about the mexican aerospace industry as true, yes the mexicans are doing well with the cards they were dealt. however you can't criticise china's aerospace industry for being "flawed" in its indigenization of foreign technology. china is simply doing what it can given the cards it's been dealt.
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
haha do you know what is interdependence?
The difference is the US and Mexico are geographically neighbours, as such is either we cooperate or we are rivals, we have chosen to cooperate, we are not anymore like Venezuela or Cuba, in any human or society relation you have the same option
China has chosen to be rival, as such do not expect honeywell do the same work it does in Mexico in China.
The same way Germany learnt to cooperate with France or England we have learnt.
Is the USA stronger industrialy than us, yes they are, it does not mean we do not have creativity or we can not cooperate and have common goals.
China has chosen rivalry, as such they are banned to get some tech but this also slows down their engine technology and the access to western tech and isaid that from the begining, now let us rest and each one keep our opinion regards.
i will leave the topic a rest until new thing happen