Well, that was almost inevitable. with successful application as a turbofan for planes, it's only a logical step to use that engine core for turboshafts and gas turbines for ship and perhaps even land vehicle propulsion. I expect to see a whole new set of chinese helos/ships propelled by indigenous powerplants in the coming decade.
Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
This is from an interview with the J-9 chief developer on J-10, contains some stuff on WS-10A vs AL-31F
just talk about how many fighter projects are delayed due to dealys in engines. When J-10 started, some plans involved using J-9's 910 turbofan engine or a copy of Mig-29's P-29 engine (WP-15, since then have been cut), also considered PW-1120 or PW-1228, also planned were the new turbofan engine under development for J-10. They decided to use WP-15 as the transitional motor. after TianAnMen Square, China went back to Soviet. J-10's success is dependent on a mature and reliable engine.
later it was decided that in J-10's development, it will start by importing engine and then switch to a more advanced domestic engine, when that is ready. As shown, this is the correct pass. WS-10A is more advanced than AL-31 and J-10 using this engine has better flight performance than early version of J-10.
J-10's generation of fighters use TVC to improve maneuverability and use that as the test ground for TVC technology on next generation.
a bunch of stuff on where J-10 can improve and where is it behind next generation plane (stealth, supersonic cruise, super maneuverability, super BVR capability). It can improve i these areas.
China has basically mastered 4th generation plane's core technology, solid foundation for 5th generation. Taihong (WS-10a), Tailing (WS-9), Taishan (WS-13), kunlun (WP-13/14) are successful. WS-10's technology specs exceed AL-31 in every area. But WS-10A is a new production, so it's reliability still need improvement, need to improve in short time to become the engine of domestic planes. Also, talked about supersonic cruise using engine with T/W ratio of 10.
in last two years, there is a lot of advancement in domestic engine. Goals including developing T/W ratio of 10 level of engine + making mature T/W ratio of 8 level of engine improve using TVC engine to improve combat capability.
a little more. This is again from HKB (the aerospace daily).
basically saying that they are developing engine (i'm assuming turbofan here) for large transport/civilian aircraft. Looks like the director of the Taihang program will also be pretty prominent in this one.
cliveersknell
New Member
Your website on the J10 quoted a powerplant with a
wet thrust of 110kN.
However, in the discussions it was pointed out that it matches the AL-31F
. Something does not compute here.
r's
Clive
wet thrust of 110kN.
However, in the discussions it was pointed out that it matches the AL-31F
. Something does not compute here.
r's
Clive
Sometimes reporters don't do the proper number checking. WS-10 corresponds to the figure above. WS-10A represents a new and more powerful version of the engine, with thrust corresponding to 129kg. People often confuse the two, not realizing that the engine being released now is actually an improved version of an earlier design.
this is from a while back, never got to post it.
just talks about the different accidents suffered in the development process (over 200) before completing the design certification. Not much to translate here, just describing the different accidents they encountered.
cliveersknell
New Member
Thanks TP.
2nd question: Does the WS10A have thrust vectoring capability?
3rd question: How does this engine compare with the ALF-31N?
Some articles posted in this section mentioned a thrust of approx 135 KN
wet , for the WS-10A, but you mentioned 129kN wet thrust. Can you clarify
this discrepancy?
thanks and best regards
Clive
2nd question: Does the WS10A have thrust vectoring capability?
3rd question: How does this engine compare with the ALF-31N?
Some articles posted in this section mentioned a thrust of approx 135 KN
wet , for the WS-10A, but you mentioned 129kN wet thrust. Can you clarify
this discrepancy?
thanks and best regards
Clive
It does not current have TVC and it does not have FADEC either afaik
Against the baseline AL-31FN, it should have superior thrust at least. That's why they didn't equip WS-10 in the first place, because it was inferior to AL-31FN. Not sure about fuel efficiency, it's not given. Eventually, WS-10A should have longer service life and be safer than AL-31, but right now it's a new engine and still has plenty to sort out. (note, it had to pass a 450 hour endurance test, don't think AL-31 had to go through one as long). As for the specific thrust, I actually always thought it was 13.2 tonne = 129 kN. I believe the original goal of WS-10A was to achieve the thrust level of F110-GE-129.
just a little bit from the Northwest Industrial university's newspaper. Basically, this university developed WS-500, which has high TW ratio and high fuel efficiency. It will be used in cruise missiles and UAVs.
goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
CHECK THIS OUT. Interview with 张恩和 （zhang enhe), ws10 chief designer. I've been following this guy for quite some time. Very genial guy in his interviews.
The LAST COLUMN is the ws10 改进型 (improved model). 15.5kN, 9.5 TWR!
In the article he talks about the main challenges of development in China. In the west, a new project is an integration from existing advanced technologies (materials, fabrication, testing facilities). In China those dependent technologies don't exist until you specificly develop them, AFTER the systems project receives funding. China started to develop turbofans as early as the 60's, with similar performance to Spey. But the aircraft project was canceled, so the engine itself went no where.
He says the ws10 took so long because it went through an extra stage of development. They built a verification prototype before the production prototype. They did it to reduce design risk considering their lack of experience. Overall he's glad they took that approach. After they figured out how the engine would match the aircraft, the did hit most milestones.
He believes his work is not done until his engine is operational in aircraft. He will "escort" the project through its production runs.
He talks about the role of engine development for the "large aircraft" project (from another source: the 200-300 seat cs2000, and 150-200 seat cs2010). He says to maintain innovation, it's necessary to 预研 (forward research). There must be a determination to develop technologies forward of the systems they will be used under. There should be thorough planning to target the critical technologies likely to be needed.
He talks about the importance of developing your team. According to survey, within CAC I there were two 50% - 50% under age 30, 50% never studied aerospace. However due to the ws10 project itself, we have developed a capable cadre of chief engineers and project leaders.
He wants to speed up the pace of small production runs. He needs fast product iterations to shorten the development cycle. Fabrication machinery, testing facilities, and materials are also bottlenecks. He wants better funding models.
The technology in ws10 has wide applications. It can be used in future aircraft, and to develop turbines for use in power generation and ship propulsion. An example of this is the american F101 core. They had great foresight to invest in the core technology. He believes developing for a general application is better than optimizing for a single scenario. Having different kinds of users gives you better feedback to improve. It's a win-win. This is in fact the future direction at Taihang.
edit: the spec graphic has been recycled in a number of articles by various sites. It is evidently not from Zhang Enhe himself.
The LAST COLUMN is the ws10 改进型 (improved model). 15.5kN, 9.5 TWR!
In the article he talks about the main challenges of development in China. In the west, a new project is an integration from existing advanced technologies (materials, fabrication, testing facilities). In China those dependent technologies don't exist until you specificly develop them, AFTER the systems project receives funding. China started to develop turbofans as early as the 60's, with similar performance to Spey. But the aircraft project was canceled, so the engine itself went no where.
He says the ws10 took so long because it went through an extra stage of development. They built a verification prototype before the production prototype. They did it to reduce design risk considering their lack of experience. Overall he's glad they took that approach. After they figured out how the engine would match the aircraft, the did hit most milestones.
He believes his work is not done until his engine is operational in aircraft. He will "escort" the project through its production runs.
He talks about the role of engine development for the "large aircraft" project (from another source: the 200-300 seat cs2000, and 150-200 seat cs2010). He says to maintain innovation, it's necessary to 预研 (forward research). There must be a determination to develop technologies forward of the systems they will be used under. There should be thorough planning to target the critical technologies likely to be needed.
He talks about the importance of developing your team. According to survey, within CAC I there were two 50% - 50% under age 30, 50% never studied aerospace. However due to the ws10 project itself, we have developed a capable cadre of chief engineers and project leaders.
He wants to speed up the pace of small production runs. He needs fast product iterations to shorten the development cycle. Fabrication machinery, testing facilities, and materials are also bottlenecks. He wants better funding models.
The technology in ws10 has wide applications. It can be used in future aircraft, and to develop turbines for use in power generation and ship propulsion. An example of this is the american F101 core. They had great foresight to invest in the core technology. He believes developing for a general application is better than optimizing for a single scenario. Having different kinds of users gives you better feedback to improve. It's a win-win. This is in fact the future direction at Taihang.
edit: the spec graphic has been recycled in a number of articles by various sites. It is evidently not from Zhang Enhe himself.
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