Chinese Engine Development

Schumacher said:

Good point Skyhawk. One has to admire the extent to which some will go to imply all of China's tech advances are from stealing & copying.
With all the M&A, joint-ventures, outsourcing, migration of talents etc in the high tech fields around the world these days, it's easy to point fingers in all directions isn't it ?

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Sure, but I think in the case of China which has been embargoed by the west since 1988, it is at the least, ironic, to then pin China's advancement on such joint ventures and tech transfers. Not to say that China didn't obtain bits and pieces of Foreign tech through legitimate or surreptiious means, but when looking at the big picture, one has to conclude that the great bulk of China's advancement has been the result of her own hard work, and diligence. In the case of WS10A, the effort the Chinese expended in making this engine a viable success was enormous, and it is something that China ought to be extremely proud of, and therefore should be credited with. It is wrong to point to an article dated 2005 and use that as the basis for WS10A's success.

Ironic for the West, but the intentional embargoization of China against Western Tech might have spurred on China's indigenous capabilities more than if the embargo did not exist. Now, at this point of time, the ball is moving, and I don't think anyone can stop the massive inertia that is China's domestic military technology industry. It will eventually reach the level of Western nations, and perhaps exceed it.

I think to be fair, Oringo isn't saying about GE contributing to the WS-10A's design, but rather, how knowledge transferred to GE-Liming can indirectly help in manufacturing components for the WS-10A and other engines.

When you are into manufacturing, there is something called defect rate, acceptance or rejection rate. If I were to produce 100 parts, if 40% of them is rejected, it would cost you more than if you have a 30% rejection rate. This is something cheap labor isn't going to help.

If you have a high rejection rate in the construction of the components, the WS-10A may end up costing more than the AL-31F, while you produce less engines to meet your quota. This currently appears to fit the scenario we are seeing now, where the engine is certified for production, but imports are still being brought in. The critical part is now to how to mass produce the engine in the quantities and quality levels desired. Cost may have been an issue why Kunlun engine did not appear to be adopted into J-7 and J-8II in large numbers over WP-13B.

Now going besides the topic, I have my speculations about the Taishan engine. Engines don't get mountain names unless they earn it, meaning they have reached an advanced stage of development.

Would it be possible to fit turbofan engines onto aircrafts such as the J8 which is equipped with turbojet engines? Replace the turbojet engine and place in turbofan engine.

No. Turbojets are slimmer than turbofans. Fuselages designed around turbojets are usually too thin for adding turbofans.

Fuel consumption was a problem of the WP-13 engine. Kunlun is not only more powerful, but also more economical, relative for a turbojet.

I heard that China is develpoing the WS-10 series. It will most likely come out WS10a, WS10B, WS10C, so that they will be fitted into J10, J11, and maybe later the licened MKK3.

BTW, the WS10 is a pretty impressive engine, it has much longer life that AL31, more fuel efficent, cheaper, and more reliable.

Shulin Jiang said:

I heard that China is develpoing the WS-10 series. It will most likely come out WS10a, WS10B, WS10C, so that they will be fitted into J10, J11, and maybe later the licened MKK3.

BTW, the WS10 is a pretty impressive engine, it has much longer life that AL31, more fuel efficent, cheaper, and more reliable.

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There is no official information on the reliability and lifecycle of the WS10 yet. Where did you get these information?

Shulin Jiang said:

I heard that China is develpoing the WS-10 series. It will most likely come out WS10a, WS10B, WS10C, so that they will be fitted into J10, J11, and maybe later the licened MKK3.

BTW, the WS10 is a pretty impressive engine, it has much longer life that AL31, more fuel efficent, cheaper, and more reliable.

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Licensed MKK3 you mean the Su-30MKK3 were did you get reports of China's interest of purchasing or license of the Su-30MKK3? The J-10 is going along just fine and is better than the Su-30 in some areas.

Does anyone here knows about the performance of WS-10A? things like the overall pressure ratio, and the thrust with afterburner.

NadeMaster said:

Does anyone here knows about the performance of WS-10A? things like the overall pressure ratio, and the thrust with afterburner.

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Reports indicate that it the WS-10A has 129kN of thrust after the afterburners.

this is posted by huitong from aerospace news on January 23rd

HKB今年1月23日报道，608所重点型号研制工作取得重大进展
某发动鸡于06年9月28日成功实现装鸡试飞，这标志着我国第一型完全自主研制，拥有完全自主知识产权的先进涡轴发动鸡研制进入了一个全新阶段。某型传动系统保证了混装试飞工作的顺利进行。某燃气涡轮起动鸡于06年8月份通过航定委组织的设计定型检查，9月份航定委批准设计定型。某涡轴发动鸡完成了发动鸡的详细设计工作，正在进行前三级高压压气鸡，燃烧室，模型涡轮试验件工程设计，以及核心鸡及其部件，系统的工程设计。某涡扇发动鸡己完成2台首翻期达标考核试车，与之配套的空气发生器已完成起动循环首翻期达标考核试车。某微型发动鸡完成了S批发动鸡加工，装配，调试及交付准备工作。航空推进技术预先研究的“十五”计划11个课题，除“提高燃气温度涡轮部件整鸡试验”正在进行外，其余均已完成，现正在进行课题验收准备工作

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talks about the success of lab 608.
In September 28thth 2006, an engine successfully achieved first flight, this is China's first fully self developed, having full intellectual property turboshaft engine. It has entered a new stage. a particular motor system ensured mixed test flight successfully continued. A particular gas turbine in August of 2006 passed design inspection, in september, the design became certified.
Another turboshaft engine finished engine's detailed design work, currently going through first 3 levels of high pressure compression chamber.
some turbofan engine has finished first 2 set of initial standard core testing? Not sure which one this is.
Then, it talks about a particular small engine has finished first S sets of engine's assemble, test and handover preparation work.

They say the first engine mentionned is WZ-9, which is for Z-10
the second engine is WZ-10, which is for the 10 tonne helicopter
and the small engine is WS-11 for K-8.

just guesses.