Chinese Engine Development

tphuang

tphuang

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oringo said:
tphuang, thanks for the news update. I heard that Liming got a lot of help from America in terms of forging technology for those critical turbofan parts. With the Russians racing to sell Su-27/30/J11 upgrade engines to China, what do you think WS-10's chances are at this point for replacing the Russion engines?
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none, they can barely produce WS-10 to supply the new J-10/11s. It will be interesting in the next few years to see if WS-10 series can beat out AL-31 series in terms of performance. That would determine whether China will import more AL-31 in the future.

So, basically, we need to see:
1) mass production capability
2) improved variants coming out.

Also to skyhawk, no insults please.
 
crobato

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oringo said:
Crobato, there's not much difference between gas turbines and turbofans. Just ask Popeye, he's seen the first of gas turbines installed on the naval ships.
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There is not much difference between turbojets and turbofans either, all are variations to the genus gas turbine. China has been making turbojets since the sixties for all its legacy aircraft and it still does today. Even now, locally designed turbojets and turbofans power various cruise, antiship missiles and target drones. The JH-7A is powered by a locally manufactured turbofan.

But if you're telling me that there is not much difference between the REQUIREMENTS of an aviation turbine and that of a ship or power generation turbine, that's complete and utter nonsense. The objective is not about having to make one at all, but one that fits the right thrust to weight profile, achieve the reliability conditions, e.g. flight hours, meet the performance conditions under different altitudes and speed conditions, and at the same time, subject the engine to airframe and flight stress. For example, does a stationary turbine or even a civilian air turbofan face face the kind of massive compression you get with supersonic flight slamming in front of your compressor blades?
 
oringo

oringo

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crobato said:
There is not much difference between turbojets and turbofans either, all are variations to the genus gas turbine. China has been making turbojets since the sixties for all its legacy aircraft and it still does today. Even now, locally designed turbojets and turbofans power various cruise, antiship missiles and target drones. The JH-7A is powered by a locally manufactured turbofan.

But if you're telling me that there is not much difference between the REQUIREMENTS of an aviation turbine and that of a ship or power generation turbine, that's complete and utter nonsense. The objective is not about having to make one at all, but one that fits the right thrust to weight profile, achieve the reliability conditions, e.g. flight hours, meet the performance conditions under different altitudes and speed conditions, and at the same time, subject the engine to airframe and flight stress. For example, does a stationary turbine or even a civilian air turbofan face face the kind of massive compression you get with supersonic flight slamming in front of your compressor blades?
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I admit that gas turbines and turbofans have different requirements, but they have a lot more in common than tubojets. If you want to prove me wrong that civilian turbine technology cannot help building turbofan engines, show me some facts. Otherwise let's go back to the discussion of WS10A.
 
crobato

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Why don't you show me then? You really know what is the difference between a turbojet, turbofan and a turboprop? What is a high bypass turbofan or what is a low bypass turbofan?

The main difference between a civil power plant gas turbine is that it is meant to produce rotating mechanical power, whereas a military low bypass turbofan with afterburner is there to make thrust. A turbojet has a lot more things in common with a low bypass turbofan than with a power plant gas turbine.
 
coolieno99

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The engine in the middle is China's first turbofan. The engine on the far right is a "baby" turbofan. It can be used to power long range cruise missiles.

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source: khanasifm:forum.china-defense.com
 
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Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

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From Sinodefence: "Two Russian engine manufacturers, Salut and Saturn, are currently competing to supply their engines to upgrade China’s Su-27 Flanker fighter fleet. The PLAAF is planning to initially acquire 52 engines worth US$180 million to upgrade 26 Su-27 fighters in 2007~08. This may be followed by a second acquisition to upgrade an additional 22 fighters"

Doesn't this indicate the PLAAF current struggle and disatisfaction with the WS-10 from acquiring further AL-31? Are those new engines AL-31F-M1 with TVC? Cause I'm pretty sure they are.
 
crobato

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Maybe, the PLAAF just doesn't want to rock the boat---

The Su-27s, Su-30s and J-11s may require modifications for the WS-10A engine to be used, mods that the PLAAF may not be willing to invest. We do know for example, that the WS-10A is slightly heavier than the AL-31F.

They may not produce enough WS-10A for upgrading old planes. You probably have barely enough for the new planes, not enough even for new J-10s.

The PLAAF has a massive logistical and support infrastructure built around the AL-31F/FN. It's not ready to start a new one for the WS-10A not just yet anyway.
 
tphuang

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Chengdu J-10 said:
From Sinodefence: "Two Russian engine manufacturers, Salut and Saturn, are currently competing to supply their engines to upgrade China’s Su-27 Flanker fighter fleet. The PLAAF is planning to initially acquire 52 engines worth US$180 million to upgrade 26 Su-27 fighters in 2007~08. This may be followed by a second acquisition to upgrade an additional 22 fighters"

Doesn't this indicate the PLAAF current struggle and disatisfaction with the WS-10 from acquiring further AL-31? Are those new engines AL-31F-M1 with TVC? Cause I'm pretty sure they are.
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They are mass producing WS-10. How can they be dissatisfied?
On top of what Crobato already mentionned.
China typically takes the two leg approach, getting both domestic and foreign system at the same time (as long as the Russian system fits the requirements).
 
Chengdu J-10

Chengdu J-10

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tphuang said:
They are mass producing WS-10. How can they be dissatisfied?
On top of what Crobato already mentionned.
China typically takes the two leg approach, getting both domestic and foreign system at the same time (as long as the Russian system fits the requirements).
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If China is producing their own WS-10 engine (i know their being mass produced) why should China buy Russian engines? I know you explained it at already but buying foreign engines takes time. First you got to negotiate. Second you got to wait for the engines to be constructed and delivered. So having order engines from other countries limits you aircraft production rate because you have to wait for them to be constructed and delivered. And obtaining the engines will not always be 100% guarantee. You always got to negotiate on the purchase of the engines. This would waste alot of time. If the WS-10 is so successful (I known its pretty successful) China really shouldn't put any further orders on Russia engines. They should try and go domestic.
 
crobato

crobato

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Chengdu J-10 said:
If China is producing their own WS-10 engine (i know their being mass produced) why should China buy Russian engines? I know you explained it at already but buying foreign engines takes time. First you got to negotiate. Second you got to wait for the engines to be constructed and delivered. So having order engines from other countries limits you aircraft production rate because you have to wait for them to be constructed and delivered. And obtaining the engines will not always be 100% guarantee. You always got to negotiate on the purchase of the engines. This would waste alot of time. If the WS-10 is so successful (I known its pretty successful) China really shouldn't put any further orders on Russia engines. They should try and go domestic.
Click to expand...

It is likely based on the language, that Salut and Saturn made aggressive offerings and PLAAF is just politely considering. Whether or not it is the PLAAF that approach them, makes a lot of difference.

I don't give that much weight to Russian arms sales articles unless the blank line has been signed. In all these years following Rus Arms trade, there is so many false hopes, starts, and promises, and only a fraction is realized.
 
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