Chinese Engine Development

Roger604 · Jan 8, 2011

ReneDad said:
In the photos of this website

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the Chinese words on the red banner of the first photo is "celebration for Taihang passed its 300 hrs inititial lifespan test" and the third photo's is "...(celebration for Taihang passed its)150 hrs persistent-running test for design authentification".

I believe these photos was shot before design authentification in 2005. I think the "initial lifespan" was referring TBO at the time, means the the time between a engine is built and its first overhaul; and "150 hrs persistent-running test" means they had tested the engine on a test bed for 150 hrs with out any pause or without any maintenance; though I agree the 20 hrs MTBMA may be true when they use these engine on planes, they know it isn't like on a test bed, they should be cautious.

As for assembly, I don't think a worker who screws fans on aeroengines is better than a worker who bolts cylinders on car engines. In Western countries, workers in aviation industry don't have tenure like professors. When the mass production line of F-22 was shut down by politicians like Gates and F-35 was financially messed up by their CEOs and MBAs, where would you suppose those poor workers who produce them to go?

Excellent analysis! The photos suggest these are the FWS10 for the J-11B / J-11BS, not the FWS10A. AFAIK it's the FWS10A that has the monocrystalline blades, not the FWS10. That would also explain how they managed to uprate the thrust so significantly (achieving 117S class performance in testing). It would also explain why this new technology is advanced enough to go on the J-20.

Lion · Jan 8, 2011

I think I wanted to squash some negative and wrong analysis of WS-10 or China turbofan development.

With J-20 also fixed with WS-10 engine. I can quite confidently say China has already stand its feet regard to advance turbofan engine.

First myth- China J-11 and J-10 still needs to import Russian AL-31F engines.

We have seen many J-11B recently with operational serial number being chunk out in numbers. Its not easy for a new type engines to get approval and certify for operational use. Unless it passes thru many rigid test and safety requirement being being inducted. Clearly, it shows the mature and reliability of WS-10. I find it funny someone being even taken by the rumour WS-10 needs maintenance every 20 hours can make it into operational unit?? They are trying to tell everybody PLAAF are some idiot or they just trying to spread poison rumour abt China turbofan?

As for J-10, I do not think China in fact prioritize it. Being smaller fighter with short leg and smaller payload. China top brass probably think passed J-10 type of single engine fighter. The fact, FC-1 never get inducted into PLAAF. FC-1 can easily replace many Q-5,J-7 and immediate upgrade PLAAF firepower and advancement easily with its cheap price tag. But this option has not taken. The fact, twin engine J-8F is still being in the frontline of intercepting clearly shows PLAAF doctrine of prefering twin engine, big fighter for their vast land and far air projection power.

J-10 probably being ousted as the fighter as the main stay of future PLAAF recently. The lack of domestic engine develop for J-10 are a clear sign J-10 future is not bright. WS-10 still need to have some minor modification before being able to fit on J-10 due to different location of gearbox and extensive test needed to cert to fly. PLAAF is not wasting time on this option. They are more interested in buying AL-31F from Russia to fit their limited number of J-10. Plus , Russia has not put a stop on engine imported on J-10 and a strong tie between Russia and China makes China comfortable with this option. Mostly likely China will end up with not more than 300 J-10(based on the available news of AL-31F engine imported) in future. J-11B and J-11BSH will formed bulk of future PLAAF.

The probably rumour of J-10B develop only as a testbed for China 4th generation fighter also add up to this analysis. Despite fit with DSI, AESA radar and advance ECM to bring it up probably the same level of EF-2000. We have not seen any further development and news of J-10B or even make it into operational unit.

Second Myth- J-20 are fitted with imported engine.. This is not totally wrong, we have seen one J-20 fitted with AL-31F engine. But we have also seen another J-20 fitted with another unknown engine which can be quite sure is a domestic one of upgraded WS-10.
It takes alot of confident on the engine to be made into a prototype to power something new into the sky. Another strong indication the maturity of China turbofan. Another prototype running Russia engine is a probably a backup as China always do things carefully to ensure success rate is high. This does not take away the credit of WS-10 being a mature product.

Another thing, I want to point out which many people missed is J-11BSH prototype is also running on domestic engine and not Russia one( You can get more photo and info from Huitong website). It is another clear indication of confident on WS-10 as I mention it takes a lot of maturity on a engine to run a prototype. Now , we have even seen operational J-11BSH being chunk out with 100% domestic parts.

From all the points I have validly point out, how can we still doubt the maturity of China turbofan like WS-10 and still keep repeat donkey years news and biased report regarding China turbofan development?

Blitzo · Jan 8, 2011

^ Well said, though I don't agree with your assessment that the J-10's future in PLAAF "isn't bright" due to the engine problem. There's a lot of room for the plane to grow, and will be China's F-16. I expect more than 300 J-10s to be produced, quite a lot more.
Depending on how powerful newer WS-10 variants are, J-10 variants could be equipped with Russian or Chinese engines -- now that PLAAF have the choice they will choose the engine which gives the best performance.
I also disagree with the idea that J-10B is only a testbed -- they've built quite a few prototypes, and the J-10B is an analogue to the F-16E, which is the next logical step up from the F-16C like J-10A.

On the second J-20 prototypes engine being Chinese -- quite a few people believe it's indigenous, and its appearance is (pleasantly) surprising. I'd like to hear from Maya before we come to a firm conclusion though. If it is indigenous then it's a major step forwards for the home aviation industry, and won't delay the initial batch of J-20s (in terms of powerplant at least) when they're produced.

latenlazy · Jan 9, 2011

Lion said:
With J-20 also fixed with WS-10 engine. I can quite confidently say China has already stand its feet regard to advance turbofan engine.

Again, being able to certify the WS-10 was a very very big step, but there's no guarantee yet that China can push the envelope of that technology to the next level. The hardest part next to proving themselves the first time for any newcomer in a field is to show they can improve further and prove themselves again a second time. There's further experience to be had improving and advancing a technology that you have in addition to being able to make that technology in the first place.

We have seen many J-11B recently with operational serial number being chunk out in numbers. Its not easy for a new type engines to get approval and certify for operational use. Unless it passes thru many rigid test and safety requirement being being inducted. Clearly, it shows the mature and reliability of WS-10. I find it funny someone being even taken by the rumour WS-10 needs maintenance every 20 hours can make it into operational unit?? They are trying to tell everybody PLAAF are some idiot or they just trying to spread poison rumour abt China turbofan?

On the other hand, finding out that new engines require more maintenance than originally thought would be consistent with production inexperience, which we know China cannot avoid. I'm not saying that that rumour is true, but it can't be completely discounted either, especially since we haven't seen further follow up pictures of new WS-10As in the last few months.

ReneDad · Jan 10, 2011

Bltizo said:
Well said, though I don't agree with your assessment that the J-10's future in PLAAF "isn't bright" due to the engine problem.

I think maybe the so-called engine problems of WS-10 on J-10 is just because the J-10's future in PLAAF fleet isn't bright enough.

Before we discuss J-10's rule in PLAAF's fleet, we should go back to the start point, the time when J-10 was planned. It was in 1980s. At the time, J-10 was supposed to battle MiG-23, MiG-29 and Su-27 within Chinese airspace and offered Chinese huge land forces minimal air cover if there was a Soviet invasion occured. There was no need of too much range and more powerful radar, etc for J-10s because they could count on Chinese ground radars and SAMs, so it was planned as a single engine light fighter.

But when J-10 finally came out in 2005, the circumstance had changed. The Soviet was no longer existent. PLAAF began to eye on somewhere like Taiwan and the South China Sea, which is far away from Chinese mainland. For fulfilling such kind of taskes, a Su-27 is obviously better than a J-10, so producing indigenous Su-27, the J-11 had been put prior than J-10.

Of course, if Chinese would be able to produce enough WS-10s, they might also fit WS-10s on J-10s. But if A.Man's article was true, it stated that the manufacturer even cound not produce enough monocrystaline turbo blade for J-11s before 2009, I belive PLAAF would rather like to use all WS-10s on J-11s and let J-10 use AL-31FNs. As a great power, China will not allow her main force of AF fleet depending on foreign engines. I think we all remember, though Russia began to sell Su-27s to China from 1990s, but before indigenous J-11Bs came out, PLAAF still had purchased a lot of old 2.5G J-8Fs just for they are all indigenous.

J-10 is a superb 3G fighter, it is also a "great leap" of Chinese aeronautical technology. But we should not suppose that the generals of PLAAF would consider things by the ways which the Chinese fanboys used to think. Isn't LCA also a great leap of Indian aviation technology? Of course it is, but who would believe IAF would put it at the position prior than Su-30MKI?

The J-20 is another sign of how PLAAF fancies heavy birds. I think the difference between a fanboy and a general is: a fanboy usually values how much of "advanced technology" a plane has, but the general just want he would have enough planes at the scene if there was something happened at the farthest end of the South China Sea.

latenlazy · Jan 10, 2011

However, just because the J-10 has short legs does not mean it no longer fulfills critical air defence roles for China. Keep in mind that any conflict China may undergo will probably involve US attempts to disable ground assets like missile installations and air bases. While the Su-27 is critical to long range strike and bomber missions, it might be cheaper to have a smaller plane fulfill domestic air defence. There is still a role for domestic defence in China's airforce.

kroko · Jan 11, 2011

latenlazy said:
Keep in mind that any conflict China may undergo will probably involve US

Not necessarily. Major powers have a "natural" reluctance to envolve each other in conflict. Russia invaded georgia and the US didnt intervene, not even economically. Dont assume that just because the US is there, means that they will get involved. This is something that obviously the chinese military developers keep in mind.

latenlazy · Jan 11, 2011

kroko said:
Not necessarily. Major powers have a "natural" reluctance to envolve each other in conflict. Russia invaded georgia and the US didnt intervene, not even economically. Dont assume that just because the US is there, means that they will get involved. This is something that obviously the chinese military developers keep in mind.

Russia US relations and China US relations are at very very different places. So are the nature of any future conflicts between Russia and the US and China and the US. Granted, there's the chance that China gets into a conflict with India or a Southeast Asian country, but we all know that the Chinese military readies itself first and foremost for any potential conflict with the US given the major security interests of the East Asian region for both sides, a tension which does not readily exist between Russia and the US. Of course big powers have a natural reluctance to involve each other, but that's only because they prepare their militaries that deter one another. Short of that clear act of deterrence (assuming models of realism) major powers would exploit one another until one or all would cease to be major powers.

In any case, we should probably continue this particular discussion in another thread. Lots of off topic lately due to recent good news

Lion · Jan 11, 2011

Lion said:
I think I wanted to squash some negative and wrong analysis of WS-10 or China turbofan development.

With J-20 also fixed with WS-10 engine. I can quite confidently say China has already stand its feet regard to advance turbofan engine.

First myth- China J-11 and J-10 still needs to import Russian AL-31F engines.

We have seen many J-11B recently with operational serial number being chunk out in numbers. Its not easy for a new type engines to get approval and certify for operational use. Unless it passes thru many rigid test and safety requirement being being inducted. Clearly, it shows the mature and reliability of WS-10. I find it funny someone being even taken by the rumour WS-10 needs maintenance every 20 hours can make it into operational unit?? They are trying to tell everybody PLAAF are some idiot or they just trying to spread poison rumour abt China turbofan?

As for J-10, I do not think China in fact prioritize it. Being smaller fighter with short leg and smaller payload. China top brass probably think passed J-10 type of single engine fighter. The fact, FC-1 never get inducted into PLAAF. FC-1 can easily replace many Q-5,J-7 and immediate upgrade PLAAF firepower and advancement easily with its cheap price tag. But this option has not taken. The fact, twin engine J-8F is still being in the frontline of intercepting clearly shows PLAAF doctrine of prefering twin engine, big fighter for their vast land and far air projection power.

J-10 probably being ousted as the fighter as the main stay of future PLAAF recently. The lack of domestic engine develop for J-10 are a clear sign J-10 future is not bright. WS-10 still need to have some minor modification before being able to fit on J-10 due to different location of gearbox and extensive test needed to cert to fly. PLAAF is not wasting time on this option. They are more interested in buying AL-31F from Russia to fit their limited number of J-10. Plus , Russia has not put a stop on engine imported on J-10 and a strong tie between Russia and China makes China comfortable with this option. Mostly likely China will end up with not more than 300 J-10(based on the available news of AL-31F engine imported) in future. J-11B and J-11BSH will formed bulk of future PLAAF.

The probably rumour of J-10B develop only as a testbed for China 4th generation fighter also add up to this analysis. Despite fit with DSI, AESA radar and advance ECM to bring it up probably the same level of EF-2000. We have not seen any further development and news of J-10B or even make it into operational unit.

Second Myth- J-20 are fitted with imported engine.. This is not totally wrong, we have seen one J-20 fitted with AL-31F engine. But we have also seen another J-20 fitted with another unknown engine which can be quite sure is a domestic one of upgraded WS-10.
It takes alot of confident on the engine to be made into a prototype to power something new into the sky. Another strong indication the maturity of China turbofan. Another prototype running Russia engine is a probably a backup as China always do things carefully to ensure success rate is high. This does not take away the credit of WS-10 being a mature product.

Another thing, I want to point out which many people missed is J-11BSH prototype is also running on domestic engine and not Russia one( You can get more photo and info from Huitong website). It is another clear indication of confident on WS-10 as I mention it takes a lot of maturity on a engine to run a prototype. Now , we have even seen operational J-11BSH being chunk out with 100% domestic parts.

From all the points I have validly point out, how can we still doubt the maturity of China turbofan like WS-10 and still keep repeat donkey years news and biased report regarding China turbofan development?

Today Maiden Flight of J-20 further added weight to my theory and speculation. The huge J-20 manage to take off without afterburner using the domestic engine. More or less tells you the thrust.

Only a mature and reliable engine can make it into a prototype, not mention give it a safe flight since the whole platform is new.

What does it tells you about China aviation engine technology?

As I say earlier. Once you cross the first hurdle, the future route will be smoother. Just like how hard Chinese make the J-10 but once they do it. Future route like FC-1 and J-20 will be easier and faster. WS-10 give China penty of problem at first but now they master it and start tinking it .

Check out Huitong website on J-20, he mention this engine is something new and more powerful than the original WS-10A.

latenlazy · Jan 11, 2011

Lion said:
Today Maiden Flight of J-20 further added weight to my theory and speculation. The huge J-20 manage to take off without afterburner using the domestic engine. More or less tells you the thrust.

Only a mature and reliable engine can make it into a prototype, not mention give it a safe flight since the whole platform is new.

What does it tells you about China aviation engine technology?

As I say earlier. Once you cross the first hurdle, the future route will be smoother. Just like how hard Chinese make the J-10 but once they do it. Future route like FC-1 and J-20 will be easier and faster. WS-10 give China penty of problem at first but now they master it and start tinking it .

Check out Huitong website on J-20, he mention this engine is something new and more powerful than the original WS-10A.

The Russians have plenty of experience with turbofans, and yet are behind schedule in boosting the thrust of the AL-41. It could just be a funding issue, but it could also be technological limitations that need to be worked around. We know that the J-20 is equipped with a more powerful turbofan, but we don't know if this is a turbofan that's production ready, or if it generates enough thrust to meet requirements.

Chinese Engine Development

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