Chinese Economics Thread

Inst

Captain
You guys are generally happy when I bash Japan, when as you can see, I'm happy to bash EVERYONE. I'm a cynic and critic by nature; nothing is ever good enough, and this is not a statement of defeatism, but of drive: things can always be better, things can always be improved.

I would prefer to avoid Japan as an example of "bad" courtesy lying, but it's also the most blatant:

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Mao, and post-Mao China, I see as a divergence from traditional Chinese patterns. If you look at Chinese history, the periods of foreign domination have become longer and longer, and China was at risk of becoming another Egypt, a long and glorious civilization submerged fully by alien culture.

For other aspects of the willingness of modern Chinese to be reflective and self-critical, I can point to Lenovo's Fu Pan tactic (AAR applied to both routine and non-routine business processes), Xi Jinping's revival of Maoist self-criticism, and Syndey Rittenberg's admiration of Mao's empiricism.

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If you ask what I am most critical about regarding Japan, it is its response to the 90s. I've made a few visits, and my opinion of Japan is, that after having reached modernization, and a higher GDP per capita than the United States, Japan opted not to do anything about its economic malaise. The social security net was there, the level of civilizational development (courtesy, social protocols, etc) were there, but the country was greying and the economy was increasingly moribund. That could have been fixed through reforms; the Euthanasia of the Rentier, i.e, allowing zombie companies to collapse, a return to social strife, as well as the possibility of transformation into something new, something better.

What I am most afraid of in China is pride; if you point out to the Japanese what's wrong with their society, you get something similar to SamuraiBlue's responses--no reform please, we're Japanese. China's repeated state collapses have a similar cause: when reform was possible, when continuous improvement was possible, government officials focused on looting the state until you hit something like the Tumu Crisis or the fall of Kaifeng. The notion of China as being superior, instead of yet being another civilization / culture / people in infinite transition (a Taoist notion, if you'd like), impedes China's capability for improving itself, and this type of conservatism threatens to bring yet another polite decadence into the world.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Another good example of socially acceptable lies in western culture is Political Correctness. People use all sorts of lies to make themselves appear more socially acceptable. Things like "re-accomodating" passengers on an aircraft, denying that race or religion played a factor in certain situations, even though it is blatantly obvious that they are factors, pretending that certain inappropriate behaviors are "normal", etc.
 

solarz

Brigadier
You guys are generally happy when I bash Japan, when as you can see, I'm happy to bash EVERYONE. I'm a cynic and critic by nature; nothing is ever good enough, and this is not a statement of defeatism, but of drive: things can always be better, things can always be improved.

I think we can argue issues without resorting to bashing one country or another. SB's problem is not so much that he's pro-Japan or anti-China, it's that he simply ignores what he doesn't agree with, and keeps trotting out cherry-picked news that confirm his bias.

There were some forumites (now banned) that displayed the same behavior but in a pro-China stance. I found them to be equally annoying.

What I am most afraid of in China is pride; if you point out to the Japanese what's wrong with their society, you get something similar to SamuraiBlue's responses--no reform please, we're Japanese. China's repeated state collapses have a similar cause: when reform was possible, when continuous improvement was possible, government officials focused on looting the state until you hit something like the Tumu Crisis or the fall of Kaifeng. The notion of China as being superior, instead of yet being another civilization / culture / people in infinite transition (a Taoist notion, if you'd like), impedes China's capability for improving itself, and this type of conservatism threatens to bring yet another polite decadence into the world.

The reformation of Chinese culture was one of the greatest achievements of Mao Zedong and the CPC. Sun Zhongshan began the reform, but was unable to complete it. It was only under Mao that Chinese culture was reformed.

I am not a fan of Confucius. Though I will acknowledge that there is much wisdom in his works, I believe that much of that wisdom needs to be updated to the 21st century instead of digested unchanged. Unfortunately, it saddens me to see a resurgence of feudal Confucian values in China today.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
You guys are generally happy when I bash Japan, when as you can see, I'm happy to bash EVERYONE. I'm a cynic and critic by nature; nothing is ever good enough, and this is not a statement of defeatism, but of drive: things can always be better, things can always be improved.

I would prefer to avoid Japan as an example of "bad" courtesy lying, but it's also the most blatant:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Mao, and post-Mao China, I see as a divergence from traditional Chinese patterns. If you look at Chinese history, the periods of foreign domination have become longer and longer, and China was at risk of becoming another Egypt, a long and glorious civilization submerged fully by alien culture.

For other aspects of the willingness of modern Chinese to be reflective and self-critical, I can point to Lenovo's Fu Pan tactic (AAR applied to both routine and non-routine business processes), Xi Jinping's revival of Maoist self-criticism, and Syndey Rittenberg's admiration of Mao's empiricism.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


If you ask what I am most critical about regarding Japan, it is its response to the 90s. I've made a few visits, and my opinion of Japan is, that after having reached modernization, and a higher GDP per capita than the United States, Japan opted not to do anything about its economic malaise. The social security net was there, the level of civilizational development (courtesy, social protocols, etc) were there, but the country was greying and the economy was increasingly moribund. That could have been fixed through reforms; the Euthanasia of the Rentier, i.e, allowing zombie companies to collapse, a return to social strife, as well as the possibility of transformation into something new, something better.

What I am most afraid of in China is pride; if you point out to the Japanese what's wrong with their society, you get something similar to SamuraiBlue's responses--no reform please, we're Japanese. China's repeated state collapses have a similar cause: when reform was possible, when continuous improvement was possible, government officials focused on looting the state until you hit something like the Tumu Crisis or the fall of Kaifeng. The notion of China as being superior, instead of yet being another civilization / culture / people in infinite transition (a Taoist notion, if you'd like), impedes China's capability for improving itself, and this type of conservatism threatens to bring yet another polite decadence into the world.

Self criticism to what extent? Is it to satisfy the China bashers and haters to disgrace their number one target the CPC or self improvement for China? If self improvement is needed as a nation than let that nation take care of it for themselves without outside or 3rd party dictating it. If China would have ask the US geopolitical foreign policy to do a self criticism on their regime changing method would any of the politicians, media, academia and people happily oblige? Nah...no way, Americans are way to proud for that.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I think we can argue issues without resorting to bashing one country or another. SB's problem is not so much that he's pro-Japan or anti-China, it's that he simply ignores what he doesn't agree with, and keeps trotting out cherry-picked news that confirm his bias.

There were some forumites (now banned) that displayed the same behavior but in a pro-China stance. I found them to be equally annoying.



The reformation of Chinese culture was one of the greatest achievements of Mao Zedong and the CPC. Sun Zhongshan began the reform, but was unable to complete it. It was only under Mao that Chinese culture was reformed.

I am not a fan of Confucius. Though I will acknowledge that there is much wisdom in his works, I believe that much of that wisdom needs to be updated to the 21st century instead of digested unchanged. Unfortunately, it saddens me to see a resurgence of feudal Confucian values in China today.

Hey it beats seeing a rise of Judeo-Christian values in China on any day. No I'm not hating on Jews or Christians. My point is would they like it if Chinese Communism or Confucius be allowed to practice in their church?
 

Inst

Captain
Self criticism to what extent? Is it to satisfy the China bashers and haters to disgrace their number one target the CPC or self improvement for China? If self improvement is needed as a nation than let that nation take care of it for themselves without outside or 3rd party dictating it. If China would have ask the US geopolitical foreign policy to do a self criticism on their regime changing method would any of the politicians, media, academia and people happily oblige? Nah...no way, Americans are way to proud for that.
You can both attack and defend at the same time; like in chess, a move can have multiple implications. Note for instance that I am praising Mao's transformation of Chinese culture into one that is more dynamic and accommodating, and I am condemning what I fear as calcification. Likewise, note that whenever I have criticized Japan, I've also moderated it with praise for Japan's various achievements.

A moderate's position is always difficult, as others have noted; whereas people on a clear side can proceed merely to attack both the center and their opponents, moderates have to defend their positions from both sides.

Think about, say, witchhunts. The best thing you can do to an enemy intelligence organization is to sow distrust and encourage witchhunts. You might not have any actual spies in the opfor, but when people turn against each other or use the witchhunt to pursue political goals you've weakened the opposing organization through their own tactics.

It's the same with correct criticism. The worst thing way someone can respond to criticism is to become defensive, because that defensiveness stops them from adjusting to the correct aspects of their criticism. Note, for instance, I did not just bring up good quality Chinese goods in responding to SamuraiBlue. I admitted and emphasized that there both were and were not problems with Chinese quality; firms under strict foreign supervision or targeting a market for which quality is a competitive advantage produce high-quality products, as we've seen in the case of caviar and 1911s. Firms that are competing merely in commodity segments, on the other hand, often cut quality to cut costs. SamuraiBlue is then both right and wrong; there are firms to which his blanket denunciation does apply, but there are also firms that he is libelling.

I'd also like to note, how is your response similar or different from SamuraiBlue's? Sure, you have a Chinese viewpoint, and you view your own perspective as correct, while his is incorrect, but you are in both cases being defensive.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Hey it beats seeing a rise of Judeo-Christian values in China on any day. No I'm not hating on Jews or Christians. My point is would they like it if Chinese Communism or Confucius be allowed to practice in their church?

I would rate them both on the same scale, in that they are both products of feudal societies. While some wisdoms contained in those values are timeless, others, not so much.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the motto I live by. The Chinese equivalent is 己所不为 勿施于人, and comes from Confucius.

On the other hand, things like stoning homosexuals, or forbidding women from talking with other men, I will pass, thank you very much.
 

Inst

Captain
@solarz: The problem with Confucianism or Neo-Confucianism or anything like that is that it's always modified for state ends. The most positive elements of Confucianism (while a son should cover for his father, a minister should admonish his ruler) are often ignored by governments as detrimental to their system of social control. The highest expression of Confucianism is its doctrine of state service, that is to say, a loyal, but not blindly-loyal minister. You recall Qian Tang, for instance, dragging his coffin along to oppose his emperor for Mencius. Or for something more contemporary, Zhou Enlai serving Mao faithfully, but constantly acting to contain his excesses, being rewarded eventually with his effective murder.

Of the Hongwu persecutions, I recall reading in a history book, "Many were those who the dynasty turned their backs upon, but none were those who turned their backs on the dynasty." That always brings a tear to my eye.
 

solarz

Brigadier
@solarz: The problem with Confucianism or Neo-Confucianism or anything like that is that it's always modified for state ends. The most positive elements of Confucianism (while a son should cover for his father, a minister should admonish his ruler) are often ignored by governments as detrimental to their system of social control. The highest expression of Confucianism is its doctrine of state service, that is to say, a loyal, but not blindly-loyal minister. You recall Qian Tang, for instance, dragging his coffin along to oppose his emperor for Mencius. Or for something more contemporary, Zhou Enlai serving Mao faithfully, but constantly acting to contain his excesses, being rewarded eventually with his effective murder.

Of the Hongwu persecutions, I recall reading in a history book, "Many were those who the dynasty turned their backs upon, but none were those who turned their backs on the dynasty." That always brings a tear to my eye.

There are always two sides to a coin. 水能载舟,亦能覆舟。

Yes, calcification is bad. It was responsible for the downfall of virtually every dynasty in Chinese history. Yet, calcification is simply the natural evolution of those Confucian values of service and piety. I would argue that without those values, the Chinese civilization would not have lasted thousands of years. That a country as geographically and culturally diverse as China can have dynasties that last hundreds of years is a testament to the power of such values to bring stability.

Zhou Enlai served Mao faithfully and worked to contain his excesses. I would argue that had Zhou not served so faithfully, Mao would have discarded him as he had Lin Biao and Deng Xiaoping. It was only because Zhou was known to everyone to be a loyal and upstanding member of the CPC, that he was able to influence Mao at all.

All states will seek to subvert the beliefs of the masses. Witness the American government and the beliefs of freedom and democracy. That is how states achieve the stable power hierarchy needed to grow.
 
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