Chinese Economics Thread

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Sounds like communism to expect any society to be unskewed. Ask Hillary when she complains about how she's treated differently because she's a woman then hypocritically judges other countries about how women are treated there. One can't judge when you haven't figured it out yourself.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Would you care to go back to my initial post #5219 to validate whether any of my statements fall outside of suggestions.

I think there is enough pre-existing evidence to suggest a hypothesis or a proposal but the more specific of a claim that you seek to make (especially if you are seeking to make a more specific claim regarding proportion or significance or strength of relationship), the more precise the evidence one would need to get.

For instance, I would be willing to accept the very general statement of "membership has its privileges" because it is a vague claim that I think can be supported based on existing knowledge and evidence, and it doesn't make any more specific claims regarding number or degree.

But if you're going to make more ambitious and specific claims such as "the system is so entrenched etc etc" or imply that the majority of the female self made billionaires are CCP members or reached their wealth through political connections then those would require a good deal more specific domain evidence.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
She forgot all about the :
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Yes it's always the ones that hide behind principles that are the first to break them. That's the difference between someone who holds out principles, whether it be human rights or capitalism or whatever, from someone who actually believes in them. The ones that hold out principles hides behind them using them like a shield to selfishly protect themselves. One who actually believes in principles voluntarily put themselves up as a shield to protect those principles. They don't easily drop them when they don't work for them like when they don't have the evidence to support their arguments, they'll charge it anyway.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I agree. Regardless of the circumstance behind their achievements it is nevertheless significant in itself that they are able to seize the opportunities to make good as an outcome. It may be a case that CCP policy values loyalty above everything else including gender. Whilst Chinese are generally economically driven and are hardworking and industrious, what I believe is happening in China is that the economic opportunities are skewed and may not be similarly available to the broader population regardless of gender.

No need to worry. Inequality does exist. It exists everywhere on the planet. However, the broader population in China has benefited from the economic development. Rising living standards for all people in the nation would be a good indication. About a year and half ago when I went to China for a conference. I watched it on the news about Chinese companies planning to open factories abroad because of increasing salary of domestic workers. Let's keep in mind that most of these workers are migrant workers coming from the country side. Almost none of them is CCP member. Yet, their income keeps getting higher.

I still have family members living in China and none of them is a CCP member. They all enjoy nice lives. I don't have millionaire/ billionaire cousins. Most of them are scientists and engineers. My wife, on the other hand, does have several cousins who are at least multi-millionaires. None of them has anything to do with the CCP. One of them makes battery and his annual sales are on the level of hundred million yuan. My wife has another cousin who is a simple farmer and has an orange farm and a tea field. He also has nothing to do with the CCP. Yet, he is also making boat load of cash. My wife also has an aunt who is a retired high school teacher. She is not a CCP member and was simply a common teacher, teaching high school math and chemistry. She retired 10-15 years ago. Yet, her pension keeps increasing every year. Now, what she gets every month in China would actually allow her to live a comfortable life in the US. She's just a ordinary teacher and has no connection whatsoever with the CCP. My wife also has a cousin who is a CCP member. He is now a simple govnt employee making a paycheck. His income is not low but also not high, just average. He's now having trouble getting enough money to keep his daughter in piano school...

So as you can see, the situation in China is not as black and white as you imagine. It's definitely not perfect in China, but also not doom and gloom either.
 
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B.I.B.

Captain
Actually, the gender pay gap in the US was 77% in the US, a lot higher than your 10% difference.

Gender equality is not about women doing the same things as men. That is what I meant about misguided attempts to erase gender roles. Does social equality mean everyone should get the same pay (i.e. communism)? No? Then why should gender equality be defined thus?

If they have the same qualifications and are equally successful at their jobs, then yes.

I've been mulling over on whether to purchase "Age of Ambition by Evan Osnos .It supposed to be good reading for people trying to understand 21st century China. Its even be nominated for a Pulitzer prize for
non fiction.

Here's what 'Fortune" Nina Easton had to say after reading some of the book



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"............In China, where “the ethos of the last 30 years is that to get rich is glorious, that instinct is gender neutral,” Osnos tells me. “I never encountered a sense [among women] of being inhibited about wanting to get rich. One of the measurements they have for themselves is the financial success of their companies and themselves.”

Consider these numbers:

  • The number of Chinese women in senior management positions has recently doubled, with
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , making China a standout in Asia.
  • Some 550 publicly-traded companies, or about 21%, have women on their boards. And Shenzhen-based Ceetop Inc. and China Teletech Holding Inc. are
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    .
  • Half of the world’s
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    .
There are, of course, endless caveats to be applied to any conversation about the status of women in China. Osnos notes that women went into business because the Communist Party was–and still is–a boys’ club that shuts them out of political leadership. And men still boast far higher net worths, helped by parents eager to help them build real-estate nest eggs to attract daughters-in-law from a limited pool of women,

But the same one-child policy that led to a shortage of prospective daughters-in-law (with parents favoring sons in the womb) has also produced a generation of doted-upon only-children who happen to be girls. Deprived of sons, parents and grandparents heaped their high expectations on daughters and grand-daughters. Hence, Osnos notes, the most popular Chinese parenting guide was calledHarvard Girl, not Harvard Boy.

The ambitions of Chinese women remain curtailed by family—they, more than men, are expected to care for aging parents—and entrenched cultural bias. A
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this way:

“In a country where men-only jobs proliferate, and hiring managers often probe female applicants about their dating life and maternal plans, it’s easy to forget that China is home to some of the highest net-worth female individuals in the world, the majority of whom achieved such status through their business success.”

Osnos prefers to go beyond the numbers to tell us the human story—like that of Gong Hainan, born small and sickly in a rural village, her leg and face later crushed in a tractor accident. Despite all that, Gong couldn’t repress her entrepreneurial gene. As a child, she bought and resold ice pops to villagers, mapping out a route of likely buyers and noting, “Whatever you do, you have to be strategic.”

Her mother was so dedicated to her daughter’s education after the tractor accident that she carried her up and down the stairs to classes. Gong later worked on a Panasonic assembly-line before returning to school and excelling in college. Considered “ugly” and unable to find a mate, she launched an online dating service, thereby breaking into the male-dominated high-tech world. By 2010, she was known as China’s No. 1 matchmaker. She took her company public on NASDAQ and ended the day worth $77 million, shared with –yes, she found one—her husband.

Gong’s story—from farmer’s daughter to board room “so fast she never had time to shed the manners and anxieties of the village,” as Osnos puts it, made me think of so many other up-from-the-bootstrap stories featuring women. One is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the real estate developer who is transforming Beijing’s skyline. Zhang spent her teenage years on a Hong Kong assembly line but eventually made her way to New York, prominent UK universities, and onto Goldman Sachs.

Like China’s men in this “age of self-creation,’ these women “defied a history that told them never to try,” in Osnos’ words. But all that long-pent-up ambition, Osnos writes, is now colliding with another powerful force–China’s authoritarianism.

For women, that clash is playing out in government-led social pressure on ambitious women to marry or risk becoming Leftover Women, the title of Leta Hong Fincher’s 2014 book. The ruling Communist Party is pushing marriage to counter fears of social instability that could come from so many unmarried men–but the blame is being heaped on women, especially educated women.

As Fincher notes, the
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had this to say about unmarried urban females over 27: “Do leftover women really deserve our sympathy? Girls with an average or ugly appearance … hope to further their education in order to increase their competitiveness. The tragedy is they don’t realise that, as women age, they are worth less and less, so by the time they get their MA or PhD, they are already old, like yellowed pearls.”

It remains to seen how these “yellowed pearls” respond.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
China annually spends more on internal security than on the military. Facts are difficult to come by when journalist working on gathering facts or in publishing them are either imprisoned or kidnapped. Case in point when China recently resorted to kidnapping HK journalist.
First of all, I'd like to see some data to the claim China spends same or more on internal security than its military (SIPRI estimated China spent about $216 billion on Defense in 2014). But, lacking that data, let's have a look at the US, just because information is relatively free and open:

US National Guard: 350k Source=
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Federal Law Enforcement: 120k in 2008 Source=
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State, County, City Law Enforcement: 1.1 million in 2008 Source=
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My guess is the 1.5 million law enforcement personnel would cost hundreds of billions, what do you think?

If you can't imprison or kidnap them, the state can always resort to coercion.
So, what of it? Nations do that and worse in pursuance of their interests. For example, US might have committed air piracy when it forced Bolivia's Presidential plane to land in Vienna (
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). Not satisfied with breaking one international law, US committed another with an illegal invasion of Bolivian soil to search for Edward Snowden.

I Chalk it off as great powers doing as then can for their own interests, and weak powers suffering as they must. All great powers do it, and if you have particular problems with China's actions, then I'd like to know the reason for your selective outrage.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If they have the same qualifications and are equally successful at their jobs, then yes.

I've been mulling over on whether to purchase "Age of Ambition by Evan Osnos .It supposed to be good reading for people trying to understand 21st century China. Its even be nominated for a Pulitzer prize for
non fiction.

Here's what 'Fortune" Nina Easton had to say after reading some of the book



Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"............In China, where “the ethos of the last 30 years is that to get rich is glorious, that instinct is gender neutral,” Osnos tells me. “I never encountered a sense [among women] of being inhibited about wanting to get rich. One of the measurements they have for themselves is the financial success of their companies and themselves.”

Consider these numbers:

  • The number of Chinese women in senior management positions has recently doubled, with
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    , making China a standout in Asia.
  • Some 550 publicly-traded companies, or about 21%, have women on their boards. And Shenzhen-based Ceetop Inc. and China Teletech Holding Inc. are
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    .
  • Half of the world’s
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
    .
There are, of course, endless caveats to be applied to any conversation about the status of women in China. Osnos notes that women went into business because the Communist Party was–and still is–a boys’ club that shuts them out of political leadership. And men still boast far higher net worths, helped by parents eager to help them build real-estate nest eggs to attract daughters-in-law from a limited pool of women,

But the same one-child policy that led to a shortage of prospective daughters-in-law (with parents favoring sons in the womb) has also produced a generation of doted-upon only-children who happen to be girls. Deprived of sons, parents and grandparents heaped their high expectations on daughters and grand-daughters. Hence, Osnos notes, the most popular Chinese parenting guide was calledHarvard Girl, not Harvard Boy.

The ambitions of Chinese women remain curtailed by family—they, more than men, are expected to care for aging parents—and entrenched cultural bias. A
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
this way:

“In a country where men-only jobs proliferate, and hiring managers often probe female applicants about their dating life and maternal plans, it’s easy to forget that China is home to some of the highest net-worth female individuals in the world, the majority of whom achieved such status through their business success.”

Osnos prefers to go beyond the numbers to tell us the human story—like that of Gong Hainan, born small and sickly in a rural village, her leg and face later crushed in a tractor accident. Despite all that, Gong couldn’t repress her entrepreneurial gene. As a child, she bought and resold ice pops to villagers, mapping out a route of likely buyers and noting, “Whatever you do, you have to be strategic.”

Her mother was so dedicated to her daughter’s education after the tractor accident that she carried her up and down the stairs to classes. Gong later worked on a Panasonic assembly-line before returning to school and excelling in college. Considered “ugly” and unable to find a mate, she launched an online dating service, thereby breaking into the male-dominated high-tech world. By 2010, she was known as China’s No. 1 matchmaker. She took her company public on NASDAQ and ended the day worth $77 million, shared with –yes, she found one—her husband.

Gong’s story—from farmer’s daughter to board room “so fast she never had time to shed the manners and anxieties of the village,” as Osnos puts it, made me think of so many other up-from-the-bootstrap stories featuring women. One is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the real estate developer who is transforming Beijing’s skyline. Zhang spent her teenage years on a Hong Kong assembly line but eventually made her way to New York, prominent UK universities, and onto Goldman Sachs.

Like China’s men in this “age of self-creation,’ these women “defied a history that told them never to try,” in Osnos’ words. But all that long-pent-up ambition, Osnos writes, is now colliding with another powerful force–China’s authoritarianism.

For women, that clash is playing out in government-led social pressure on ambitious women to marry or risk becoming Leftover Women, the title of Leta Hong Fincher’s 2014 book. The ruling Communist Party is pushing marriage to counter fears of social instability that could come from so many unmarried men–but the blame is being heaped on women, especially educated women.

As Fincher notes, the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
had this to say about unmarried urban females over 27: “Do leftover women really deserve our sympathy? Girls with an average or ugly appearance … hope to further their education in order to increase their competitiveness. The tragedy is they don’t realise that, as women age, they are worth less and less, so by the time they get their MA or PhD, they are already old, like yellowed pearls.”

It remains to seen how these “yellowed pearls” respond.

I was wondering if anyone was going to bring up Leta Hong Fincher.

I've been following the so-called leftover women phenomenon for quite a while now, and I'm not sure if her conclusion that the idea that the phrase is "government coined" is fair, because just as one can find articles from state media seemingly espousing the leftover women term there are also articles criticizing the term upfront and even using the term leftover men. So I'm a little bit doubtful as to whether media discussion about the term is a result of "government pressure" or if it's simply media interest in the phenomenon.
That said, I haven't read her book so I can't judge the logic of whatever arguments she makes in it.

=====

As I said before, there are various different indicators for social progressivism and such as for gender equality. Performing well or poorly on some indicators does not negate the good or poor performance in other domains and everything should be taken as a whole.
 

vesicles

Colonel
A number of years ago, I was told that young single Chinese women in big cities are buying houses. The goal is to better attract future husbands. As you can see, they have a totally different mentality, which is fierce independence. They no longer see themselves as their husbands' partners. They see themselves as the dominating members of the society.
 
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