Chinese Economics Thread

Franklin

Captain
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I think American companies will most likely continue to shift their business plans away from China towards south east Asia and India. I’m starting to hear more rumbles from my own company about the future of our offices in China too.
Foreign companies are now making less money in China. Because there is a recent trend where the Chinese consumers are moving away from international brands and are now starting to favour domestic ones. This is everything from clothes, shoes, home appliances, cars, fast food and more.

They simply offer better value for money that is the main reason why this is happening. The Chinese have learned everything they can from the foreign companies operating in China and are now able to offer similar goods and services at a better price.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Nope they don't. People here are very knowledgeable about industries but not the broader economy.



I agree with most points, however things have changed. During those years, Chinese investors had property as their major destination for investment, something that makes their wealth grow, and has direct effect on their sentiment.

The problem now is:
  1. With a richer China comes a need for more focus on wealth (and not economic) management. Hence, capital markets become more important.
  2. Due to property slump, capital markets become even more important.
  3. With the focus on internationalization of the RMB, capital markets become important as a way to invest RMB proceeds. Like if you are Saudi Arabia, where can you invest or park your RMB from oil sales? For USD, you have a pretty high interest govt bonds, decent returns on stock market, etc. etc.
Some points where I don't agree:
  1. Listed companies in the US don't necessarily need to give out dividends, it's a companies philosophy and many companies have made big without ever giving out dividends. Examples, Amazon, Berkshire Hathaway etc.
  2. There should be some pressure to get returns, otherwise it will lead to wasteful expenditure. Yes it can lead to short termism, so it has pros and cons.

The prerequisites for a mature, functioning capital market in a nation which seeks geopolitical independence, is the need for a nation to be developed in all manners of society, trust, culture, a sufficient lack of scarcity (aka per capital wealth), and to experience that for a sufficient duration of time, all with a bedrock of fundamental geopolitical industry and technology and military power to ensure they are a credible player that has their own chips to play on the world stage rather than operating on another actor's credit.

If one seeks a nation to have a functioning capital market which is not merely just a gambling den (as @GiantPanda accurately describes in #32400, the Chinese capital market in the recent past but also including today), that is merely one of the many outcomes of having a couple of centuries of stable, potent and victorious geopolitical fruits where you are not on the receiving end of conflict, destruction of your own institutions and industries, etc.

=============

In the China specific case, the question about "what role should capital markets serve in China," and the overall question of "what characteristics and metrics should the Chinese economy be aiming towards each year" -- should really be subordinated to "what is first and foremost the geopolitical objectives of each year/five years/decade etc".

While capital markets and economic performance are vital in enabling industry, technology, society, and military power and advancement, correctly identifying which aspects of capital markets and which subdomains of economic performance are geopolitically important at this stage and which aspects have less relevant weighting, I think needs to be at the forefront of considering these questions.
If some domains of the economy are less vital and can be allowed to tick at an acceptable lower rate for a while to enable other reforms, actions or developments to occur or to advance, while the overall economic/geopolitical objectives can still be attained at a reasonable pace, then it is that balancing act which should be dissected and linked together.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the main reason is competition in China. If your company is in tech there is no amount of growth in India in the next decade or two that can catch up to even the current demand in China. China's market for chips is around 50% of the global total.

If it could compete and expand market share then staying in China is a no-brainer even if China simply stood still and not grow. But most Westerns firms won't be able to compete against local firms -- any not only because of efficiency or the state of the product but because of geopolitics too.

Also, the adaptation and evolution of technology in China is so fast that a lot of today's leading tech -- like in ICE manufacturing -- can literally be overtaken and rendered obsolete within a few years.
Agree. And as one of the western commodities opined on his China analysis of cutthroat competition: it's like the hunger games.

China practices actual "capitalism" where you have many different competitors where the customers see actual benefits (from better quality to lower prices). Where was the last time you see a better quality product and lower prices in the west, especially in America where it supposedly the king of capitalism? We don't see that in healthcare, smartphones, automobiles EV or non ev. We don't even see a lot of bankruptcies in America anymore unlike in China where such scenario is a by product of actual competition ergo capitalism.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
1726153779459.png

I'd love for you guys to perform mental gymnastics on explaining how this is not bad. USD funds going away is fully expected, but RMB funds not investing = big big problem.

We can talk all day long about how China looks in 2050 (mentally jerk off to the 2500 J-20s a fleet of 10 CGs at a GDP per capita of 35k USD equivalent) all we want but the long term is made up of many short terms - and the short term looks shit.

Confidence/sentiment is Atrocious..

As I said about a year ago.

None of these issues, by the way, are in anyway contradictory to the highly successful "Industrial Upgrade Theme" that takes up 99% of the mindshare of people in this thread.

Before attacking the point, it helps to recognize that multiple things can be true at the same f'ing time.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
View attachment 135594

I'd love for you guys to perform mental gymnastics on explaining how this is not bad. USD funds going away is fully expected, but RMB funds not investing = big big problem.

We can talk all day long about how China looks in 2050 (mentally jerk off to the 2500 J-20s a fleet of 10 CGs at a GDP per capita of 35k USD equivalent) all we want but the long term is made up of many short terms - and the short term looks shit.



As I said about a year ago.



Before attacking the point, it helps to recognize that multiple things can be true at the same f'ing time.
How is this substantially different from US collapse in IPO or VC activity?

im-885600


images
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 135594

I'd love for you guys to perform mental gymnastics on explaining how this is not bad. USD funds going away is fully expected, but RMB funds not investing = big big problem.

This is just in the chips industry alone:
IMG_4122.jpeg

VCs are most prominent in funding high tech in the US.

Not China.

Or are you going to tell me that China Big Fund is doing nothing?
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
View attachment 135594

I'd love for you guys to perform mental gymnastics on explaining how this is not bad. USD funds going away is fully expected, but RMB funds not investing = big big problem.

We can talk all day long about how China looks in 2050 (mentally jerk off to the 2500 J-20s a fleet of 10 CGs at a GDP per capita of 35k USD equivalent) all we want but the long term is made up of many short terms - and the short term looks shit.
I'm use to post in the semiconductor thread and one of my post was this one Semiconductor startup founding from semiengineering, 60% of the startup founding use to be dominated by Chinese companies now there is no Chinese companies, do that means that China semiconductor startups are no having funding? of course no, funding is even increasing in the technology sector, I think China accounts 75% of the semiconductor venture capital and it makes the majority of the AI venture capital.

My guess is that China passed Data collection laws in 2021 making difficult if not impossible to know for these data collection companies where the money is going and from who with reliability. I publish mostly things that see in the media but many Chinese firms that collect this data reliable stopped posting this data.

Dec 2022
1726154597296.png
2024
1726154516874.png
but I keep posting Startup fundings daily
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
How is this substantially different from US collapse in IPO or VC activity?

im-885600


images

Perhaps its not, but repeat after me: that the US situation is bad does not make China's situation not bad.

This is just in the chips industry alone:
View attachment 135597

VCs are most prominent in funding high tech in the US.

Not China.

Or are you going to tell me that China Big Fund is doing nothing?

See how the numbers really fell off in 2021/202? You are using data from 2022 in an attempt to disprove weakness in 2023/2024.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
Perhaps its not, but repeat after me: that the US situation is bad does not make China's situation not bad.



See how the numbers really fell off in 2021/202? You are using data from 2022 in an attempt to disprove weakness in 2023/2024.
1726158176245.png
Is not like is going to drop like stone in 2024. This is probably not counting private deals that not appear in China media.
 
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