Chinese Economics Thread

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
Western incumbents going down in market share in China. Boohoo.

Those pricks at Siemens pulled out from the Russian market after being there for 170 years. Had to join the anti-Russian sanctions bandwagon after their invasion of Ukraine. Siemens are not reliable as a supplier, depend on Western government whims, and their products are overpriced. Good riddance.

It doesn't have to be "Western". There is plenty of Chinese and Russian money too. The reaosn why you want private equity and private funds, is to facilitate firm formation and thereby, competition.

The Chinese EV market is a good example of how competition pushes the industry forward, but EVs and Aerospace also have massive capital requirement, which is why government aid and other State-back financing vehicles are useful for this sort of thing.

But I'd say most things don't require large capital and it's inefficient for the State to be involved in every facet of the economy. Which is why you want a vibrant financial sector.

Yeah, United States has a massive problem of over-financialization of literally everything, but the extreme opposite isn't true. I don't know what the state of things is in China, but you can't realy on LGFVs, univerisities, and Huawei to do everything. Private equity is good.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
Western incumbents going down in market share in China. Boohoo.

Those pricks at Siemens pulled out from the Russian market after being there for 170 years. Had to join the anti-Russian sanctions bandwagon after their invasion of Ukraine. Siemens are not reliable as a supplier, depend on Western government whims, and their products are overpriced. Good riddance.

Yea let's just pretend the part where domestic small players are likely -20 to -30% doesn't exist.

@GiantPanda

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Japan also consumed more electricity in the 1990s, but see disposable income growth:

View attachment 135447

Yi Gang, Former People's Bank of China Governor:
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You: Nah no worries bro deflation is good.
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yea let's just pretend the part where domestic small players are likely -20 to -30% doesn't exist.

@GiantPanda

Yi Gang, Former People's Bank of China Governor:
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You: Nah no worries bro deflation is good.
What's your goal or meaning, what should (in your opinion) Chinese government in terms of economic policies to reverse or improve the dire situation you find China is experiencing?

You keep harping the same tune in terms of China's deflationary pressure which isn't that great, and you get the inevitable push back from a lot of folks that are still sanguine on Chinese overall economic growth.
 

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
I love how you repeatedly use 1 single chart (like notwithstanding its a year old) to justify your CURRENT and FUTURE outlook on China.

The industrial automation industry in 1H24 is down 2.8%. This is directly from the biggest company in this space in China. They are growing 10% but Siemens is like -40%. They *were* growing at 30% in 2022/2023. And they are the absolute leader, meaning the small/medium companies are likely -20% or -30%.

If you want to celebrate that as a win, I mean sure, you do you, but that's major grade 5 "I know I'm bad but what about you" playground energy.

View attachment 135612

Meaning, yes 2023 was great in this space, but 2024 is shit because that credit impulse significantly slowed down.
1726167147402.png
The "CURRENT and FUTURE outlook in China." is fine? Good actually? Chinese industrial automation is still growing but making less profits due to competition.

It's so weird for you liberals to promote free market and competition and when China actually does it and drives profit down its suddenly "bad for the economy" now
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's your goal or meaning, what should (in your opinion) Chinese government in terms of economic policies to reverse or improve the dire situation you find China is experiencing?

You keep harping the same tune in terms of China's deflationary pressure which isn't that great, and you get the inevitable push back from a lot of folks that are still sanguine on Chinese overall economic growth.

Deflation is not just prices of things going down, but rather the *expectation* of future prices. When you believe things are going to get cheaper in the future, you defer consumption - why pay more now when you can get things for cheaper and better in the future? The fact that the country has been experiencing deflation in the longest period since 1998 (and soo to be longer), that changes the expectations/mentality of the average population. And this is where the Japan experience comes into play - wages in Japan started shrinking, hiring fell, etc.

For example, current housing starts/sales are already below the expected replacement + household formation + urbanization rates - meaning that people are deferring purchases. I.E this is already happening in housing.

White-label-ization is also happening in all the product categories:
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(You may very well believe that Wuliangye is a waste and that people shouldn't ever waste money on that, but newsflash, Yibin Government would go bankrupt if Wuliangye collapsed. This is before the obvious question of who died and made *your* values the be all end all *societal* values?)

So the entire policy mechanism needs to focus on preventing that from ever happening.

Whatever reforms they announced at the 3rd plenum needs to be accelerated and the central government needs to announce a 3-5 year fiscal package dedicated towards completing those reforms, with people actually feeling they are getting the benefits. Additionally, policy sequencing has to be improved - The narrative needs to shift towards how 'things are tough now but they will get better'.

As I've pointed countless times, the reason that Western propaganda is working is because reality on the ground is deteriorating. There is a reason why the Michael Pettis bullshit about the HSR being bad isn't sticking - its because people ride the damn trains and see how good they are. But guess what, this current economic pain is playing into the Western media messaging.

For all you people who are all busy harping on the future strength of the Chinese economy here, in the mother of all echo chambers, your efforts will be much better served on Chinese social media in Chinese.
 

abenomics12345

Junior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 135622
The "CURRENT and FUTURE outlook in China." is fine? Good actually? Chinese industrial automation is still growing but making less profits due to competition.

It's so weird for you liberals to promote free market and competition and when China actually does it and drives profit down its suddenly "bad for the economy" now

This literally proves my point.

The list of those companies generated 48.2bln in revenues in 1H24 vs 41.9bln in 1H23. As industry was 147.6bln in 1H24 from the Inovance Report, 2.8% reduction means that 1H23 was 151.8bln.

Therefore, the rest of the industry was 99.3bln in 1H24 vs 109.9bln in 1H23 - a 10% reduction.

This isn't even to mention that the biggest driver of Inovance's revenue growth driven by the ~90% growth in EVs business (which we all know), so the industrial automation piece was more like 10%. Meaning that the growth wasn't nearly as strong as listed on that table.

Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself. If you're really DoggyDog from Twitter and supposedly a former finance industry professional, this shitty analysis you do here is indicative of the quality of the work the Chinese capital markets did and why it is as crappy as it is today.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
View attachment 135594

I'd love for you guys to perform mental gymnastics on explaining how this is not bad. USD funds going away is fully expected, but RMB funds not investing = big big problem.

Bad or good is all relative and depends on context and priority.

In China's case, what are the overall geopolitical and overall economic goals that want to be attained, and how consequential, long lasting and important are these metrics in context of the performance of metrics in other domains? I'll elaborate on this below because your entire reply basically follows one theme.



We can talk all day long about how China looks in 2050 (mentally jerk off to the 2500 J-20s a fleet of 10 CGs at a GDP per capita of 35k USD equivalent) all we want but the long term is made up of many short terms - and the short term looks shit.

The long term is indeed made up of many short terms.
You are arguing that one domain of overall economic performance is doing poorly, which is not unreasonable on its surface.
However it is implied that you are worried about that domain of performance in context of at least medium and long term overall economic and geopolitical goals, and to substantiate those concerns it would be necessary to look at the other domains of economic performance (or argue why you believe your domain of interest is of disproportionately greater importance), as well as argue that there will be medium or long term consequences outside of the short term.

If your interest in this specific economic domain does not have medium or long term overall economic or overall geopolitical meanings or insinuations, then that is fine and just write so and everyone can recalibrate the meaning of what you're actually conveying.

Also, by 2050 one would expect that J-20s would be in the sunset phase of its life so presumably by then there shouldn't be too many remaining in context of the overall air fleet.

Before attacking the point, it helps to recognize that multiple things can be true at the same f'ing time.

No one is attacking your "point".

What people are wondering is why there is this one specific area of economic performance that you focus on in context of the overall economy, and why you seem to be insinuating that this specific domain of economic performance is of disproportionate concern in context of overall medium and long term Chinese economic and geopolitical goals.

On the other hand, if you are not saying or claiming that current performance in this specific economic domain is necessarily of consequence for the broader economy or geopolitical objectives in the medium and long term, then that's fine as well and I think everyone would thank you for that as it lets everyone properly frame your contributions.


As it stands, I think broadly speaking most people in this thread are aware that there are aspects of the economy which are performing less well than others, particularly those which are most exposed to industries that are being curtailed and deliberately reformed (property in particular), and that while there is recognition these efforts will cause negative sentiments, in the medium to long term the reforms and curtailment will be better for overall economic and geopolitical goals, and in the short term the overall economy and overall geopolitical goals can be met with the advancement of other industries and economic areas which also happen to be more conducive to long term geopolitical objectives.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
When you believe things are going to get cheaper in the future, you defer consumption - why pay more now when you can get things for cheaper and better in the future? The fact that the country has been experiencing deflation in the longest period since 1998 (and soo to be longer), that changes the expectations/mentality of the average population. And this is where the Japan experience comes into play - wages in Japan started shrinking, hiring fell, etc.
It is a shakedown of the whole economy. Companies are forced to become more efficient and leaner. The leftover labor force gets into new market segments. Only a non-capitalist would think that is a bad thing.

Comparisons of China with Japan are inept. China still has a huge amount of population living outside urban areas, and unlike Japan it still is expanding its economic activity. Namely in EVs and aircraft in general.
 
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