Chinese Economics Thread

J.Whitman

New Member
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)​
2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)​
2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)​
2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)​
2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)​
2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)​
2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)​
2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)​
2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)​
2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)​
2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)​
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


There are no indication this event will happen in the 2020s. Mainstream economics indicate that China´s GDP (and GDP per capita) is falling in relation to other countries. This can in part can be explained by the weak RMB.

I want to add something that will not be popular among many members. China is not third world country in the sense of Burundi. China has always been technically superior to Africa with the exception of white-ruled apartheid South Africa. Contemporary China is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom during Victorian era (1837-1901). A small and rich industrial and government elite that rule the people through a class of modestly wealthy and well-paid cohort of civil servants and professionals in the private industry.

Below the managerial class you find the working class. A class that to large extent consists of semi-skilled workers that work unsafe and dangerous factories for little money. China has also a growing class of poor urban workers. They sell what they find along the streets or in small shops. Many of them also work in the bottom of the service sector - driving food to the aloof managerial class. These workers live in slums with diseases, crime and poverty between the skyscrapers and modern high-rise buildings. Rural China is still intact and 7.5% of Chinese GDP stem from a agriculture. The lives of Chinese rural peasants lives has not changed much and they contribute little per capita to the economy.

The average salary in the private industry is $770/month (2022). The average salary for a worker in government is $1340/month. These massive diffrences between an overpaid class of civil servants and everyone else are typical for developing countries. The median salary is no doubt much lower. This is how Chongqing look behind the finance, business and shopping districts.


Of course images like above is expected as Chinese workers make so little money. In June 2023 the youth unemployment in China hit 21%. By the end of 2023 it had dropped to 15% more in line with 2022. China, like so many other countries, think that (mass)production of college students will solve this issue. This has been tried and failed all over the world., in Sweden, India, South Africa, Brazil, Canada and the United States. With automatization, increased corporate efficiency and lack of opportunity other than menial work many college educated Chinese youth will stay poor.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Only a few countries have been able to reach a developed social and economic level. These are the Eastern European EU-members that were lifted by the European Union and Israel. Israel was lifted by the United States and the Jewish diaspora. The others are Singapore, South Korea and Japan. The only countries in Asia that show potential are China and Vietnam. China seem to fail it´s mission.
 

henrik

Senior Member
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)​
2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)​
2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)​
2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)​
2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)​
2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)​
2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)​
2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)​
2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)​
2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)​
2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)​
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


There are no indication this event will happen in the 2020s. Mainstream economics indicate that China´s GDP (and GDP per capita) is falling in relation to other countries. This can in part can be explained by the weak RMB.

I want to add something that will not be popular among many members. China is not third world country in the sense of Burundi. China has always been technically superior to Africa with the exception of white-ruled apartheid South Africa. Contemporary China is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom during Victorian era (1837-1901). A small and rich industrial and government elite that rule the people through a class of modestly wealthy and well-paid cohort of civil servants and professionals in the private industry.

Below the managerial class you find the working class. A class that to large extent consists of semi-skilled workers that work unsafe and dangerous factories for little money. China has also a growing class of poor urban workers. They sell what they find along the streets or in small shops. Many of them also work in the bottom of the service sector - driving food to the aloof managerial class. These workers live in slums with diseases, crime and poverty between the skyscrapers and modern high-rise buildings. Rural China is still intact and 7.5% of Chinese GDP stem from a agriculture. The lives of Chinese rural peasants lives has not changed much and they contribute little per capita to the economy.

The average salary in the private industry is $770/month (2022). The average salary for a worker in government is $1340/month. These massive diffrences between an overpaid class of civil servants and everyone else are typical for developing countries. The median salary is no doubt much lower. This is how Chongqing look behind the finance, business and shopping districts.


Of course images like above is expected as Chinese workers make so little money. In June 2023 the youth unemployment in China hit 21%. By the end of 2023 it had dropped to 15% more in line with 2022. China, like so many other countries, think that (mass)production of college students will solve this issue. This has been tried and failed all over the world., in Sweden, India, South Africa, Brazil, Canada and the United States. With automatization, increased corporate efficiency and lack of opportunity other than menial work many college educated Chinese youth will stay poor.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Only a few countries have been able to reach a developed social and economic level. These are the Eastern European EU-members that were lifted by the European Union and Israel. Israel was lifted by the United States and the Jewish diaspora. The others are Singapore, South Korea and Japan. The only countries in Asia that show potential are China and Vietnam. China seem to fail it´s mission.

What you say is not accurate, due to your misunderstandings of the real China. But most members here are not going to feel bad for whatever you say, or too agitated about what you said. You are still welcome to say whatever you want here.
 

hereforsemithread

New Member
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)​
2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)​
2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)​
2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)​
2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)​
2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)​
2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)​
2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)​
2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)​
2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)​
2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)​
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


There are no indication this event will happen in the 2020s. Mainstream economics indicate that China´s GDP (and GDP per capita) is falling in relation to other countries. This can in part can be explained by the weak RMB.

I want to add something that will not be popular among many members. China is not third world country in the sense of Burundi. China has always been technically superior to Africa with the exception of white-ruled apartheid South Africa. Contemporary China is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom during Victorian era (1837-1901). A small and rich industrial and government elite that rule the people through a class of modestly wealthy and well-paid cohort of civil servants and professionals in the private industry.

Below the managerial class you find the working class. A class that to large extent consists of semi-skilled workers that work unsafe and dangerous factories for little money. China has also a growing class of poor urban workers. They sell what they find along the streets or in small shops. Many of them also work in the bottom of the service sector - driving food to the aloof managerial class. These workers live in slums with diseases, crime and poverty between the skyscrapers and modern high-rise buildings. Rural China is still intact and 7.5% of Chinese GDP stem from a agriculture. The lives of Chinese rural peasants lives has not changed much and they contribute little per capita to the economy.

The average salary in the private industry is $770/month (2022). The average salary for a worker in government is $1340/month. These massive diffrences between an overpaid class of civil servants and everyone else are typical for developing countries. The median salary is no doubt much lower. This is how Chongqing look behind the finance, business and shopping districts.


Of course images like above is expected as Chinese workers make so little money. In June 2023 the youth unemployment in China hit 21%. By the end of 2023 it had dropped to 15% more in line with 2022. China, like so many other countries, think that (mass)production of college students will solve this issue. This has been tried and failed all over the world., in Sweden, India, South Africa, Brazil, Canada and the United States. With automatization, increased corporate efficiency and lack of opportunity other than menial work many college educated Chinese youth will stay poor.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Only a few countries have been able to reach a developed social and economic level. These are the Eastern European EU-members that were lifted by the European Union and Israel. Israel was lifted by the United States and the Jewish diaspora. The others are Singapore, South Korea and Japan. The only countries in Asia that show potential are China and Vietnam. China seem to fail it´s mission.
Oh please save it. Yes Chinese nominal GDP will not surpass the US in the 2020's and many people here are wrong about that. No that doesn't make your lack of knowledge about basic exchange rate concepts any less egregious on your part. You have no standing whatsoever to be making broad claims about the nature of class society, or China's economic transition, or its ultimate developmental fate.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


That's 99% of irrelevant information only some economically illiterate or innately low IQ people talk about or bring up generally idk why.

If you wanna measure how well individuals are doing in some countries it goes something like this:

Various broad satisfaction and happiness research > GDP PPP per capita > 10000 empty spaces > low IQ nominal GDP measure.

Even GDP PPP per capita doesn't tell the full story when you are observing a socialist country like China,

In which many services that would've been otherwise inflated in price in the oligarch-run West (resulting in higher GDPs), are provided for free or very cheap at least in comparison.

That's why you have such higher suicides, crime, depression, drug overuse, homeless, child hunger, and violence & divisions & polarization, in the US, like a shithole, despite higher nominal bullshit GDP.

And then there is this: 66.6 percent of the total wealth in the United States was owned by the top 10 percent of earners. Half of their people have net worths lower than 15k.

That's why China has higher healthspans/lifespans, and it would be an even worse stat for the US if you discount their wealthy people with the best/only healthcare.

And this is just talking about standards of life, not about individual quality of life. Can you walk at night in the US & most of Europe?

What is the smell like in the streets & subways, are there rats invasions? Are there any robberies or mass lootings every day? Stabbings/bullets?

Are their supermarket shelves protected with bullet-proof glass, armed police on every corner, armed business owners, and police brutality?

Is 25% of prisoners in the world incarcerated in the US in China despite the US being 4% of the global population overall?

Prison slave labor in the US or China? The higher homicide rate in the US or China? Who has more repeated criminal offenders, etc?

I wouldn't in a million years rather live in the US than China. The US is like Africa but with old accumulated wealth from the past century.
 
Last edited:

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)​
2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)​
2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)​
2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)​
2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)​
2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)​
2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)​
2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)​
2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)​
2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)​
2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)​
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


There are no indication this event will happen in the 2020s. Mainstream economics indicate that China´s GDP (and GDP per capita) is falling in relation to other countries. This can in part can be explained by the weak RMB.

I want to add something that will not be popular among many members. China is not third world country in the sense of Burundi. China has always been technically superior to Africa with the exception of white-ruled apartheid South Africa. Contemporary China is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom during Victorian era (1837-1901). A small and rich industrial and government elite that rule the people through a class of modestly wealthy and well-paid cohort of civil servants and professionals in the private industry.

Below the managerial class you find the working class. A class that to large extent consists of semi-skilled workers that work unsafe and dangerous factories for little money. China has also a growing class of poor urban workers. They sell what they find along the streets or in small shops. Many of them also work in the bottom of the service sector - driving food to the aloof managerial class. These workers live in slums with diseases, crime and poverty between the skyscrapers and modern high-rise buildings. Rural China is still intact and 7.5% of Chinese GDP stem from a agriculture. The lives of Chinese rural peasants lives has not changed much and they contribute little per capita to the economy.

The average salary in the private industry is $770/month (2022). The average salary for a worker in government is $1340/month. These massive diffrences between an overpaid class of civil servants and everyone else are typical for developing countries. The median salary is no doubt much lower. This is how Chongqing look behind the finance, business and shopping districts.


Of course images like above is expected as Chinese workers make so little money. In June 2023 the youth unemployment in China hit 21%. By the end of 2023 it had dropped to 15% more in line with 2022. China, like so many other countries, think that (mass)production of college students will solve this issue. This has been tried and failed all over the world., in Sweden, India, South Africa, Brazil, Canada and the United States. With automatization, increased corporate efficiency and lack of opportunity other than menial work many college educated Chinese youth will stay poor.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Only a few countries have been able to reach a developed social and economic level. These are the Eastern European EU-members that were lifted by the European Union and Israel. Israel was lifted by the United States and the Jewish diaspora. The others are Singapore, South Korea and Japan. The only countries in Asia that show potential are China and Vietnam. China seem to fail it´s mission.
Hey nice picture of Chongqing, wanna see NYC behind the scenes of Times Square and Wall Street as a comparison?

How about the fact that US maternal mortality for some ethnic groups is now higher than some African countries and even for the ruling whites is now higher than prewar Palestine of all countries?

How about the fact that US life expectancy is lower than not just China but even Brazil which is filled with drugs and crime at 1/5 the GDP per capita?

Whose is actually living in "crime filled and diseased slums driving food delivery for the managerial class"?
 

chgough34

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, what can we learn from them? Do they challenge my assumption that the Chinese GDP is massively underestimated? Where to see it?
Yes. The income and production approach in the NBS national accounts rebuts against the presumption of the consumption approach being incorrect
And in general, what findings did you extract from them that could be useful for a discussion about China's economy in general so you keep bringing them up so much?

Yes, those two approaches are used today, but not for measuring comprehensive economic strength,
They are useful because you keep strawmaning GDP
But to measure the distribution of various income and production outputs by categories (and the gross value added) of the entire economy.

And still, they are nearly impossible to find. Generally, the GDP reported by various countries, global organizations, financial institutions,
They are very easy to find. It’s on the national accounts section of any statistical agency.
Is only the expenditure-derived GDP, not some kind of statistical average between the 3, so I don't understand how they are relevant.
No. Income, production, and consumption approaches use different data in inputs and are equal to each other. They cross-verify the internal validity of each other
Even if Chinese GDP is understated only in the expenditure method, and not in the other 2, we wouldn't know that since it is obscure info.
The GDP calculations on both the production, consumption, and income approaches are all equal.
We are not talking about what's immaterial, or what's material, but about the accounting conclusion reached for GDP at the end of the year. If the Chinese lower prices of various public services resulted in more savings left for people to have, that's not accounted for in GDP, but had they spent more on overpriced private services like in the US, it would've ended in the GDP calculation. What's so hard to understand here for you?
Price levels are immaterial to gdp. That’s the story.
 

Serb

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes. The income and production approach in the NBS national accounts rebuts against the presumption of the consumption approach being incorrect

The consumption GDP of China (more so the comparison of it vs the US) would be correct had China accounted for its social consumer surpluses on the government level as imputed monetary value in its final conclusion or if the US was of a similar economic and political framework as China. The same for the different accounting standard interpretation, imputed rent interpretation, and unregistered business activity situations as well, they are all not leveled up to the same methodology. Otherwise, we can't know the true ratio of Chinese vs US real GDP until that happens, we can only speculate, I say around 180% to 200% of the US GDP for China. Anyway, way more than on the US MSM.

They are useful because you keep strawmaning GDP

You don't know what strawmaning means 100%.

They are very easy to find. It’s on the national accounts section of any statistical agency.

No, judging by a short search and prediction, it would take at least a couple of hours to find.

No. Income, production, and consumption approaches use different data in inputs and are equal to each other. They cross-verify the internal validity of each other

That isn't always the case due to various reasons. And if it is undercounted in one method, it could also be in the other 2 irrelevant methods.

Price levels are immaterial to gdp. That’s the story.

Not even a remotely accurate statement.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
China`s GDP per capita from National Bureau of Statistics of China from 2013 to 2023;

2023: 89,358 RMB ($12,584)​
2022: 85,310 RMB ($12,017)​
2021: 81,370 RMB ($11,462)​
2020: 71,828 RMB ($10,117)​
2019: 70,078 RMB ($9,871)​
2018: 65,534 RMB ($9,231)​
2017: 59,592 RMB ($8,394)​
2016: 53,783 RMB ($7,576)​
2015: 49,922 RMB ($7,032)​
2014: 46,912 RMB ($6,608)​
2013: 43,497 RMB ($6,126) - (USD in 2024-01-31 USD-RMB exchange rate for visualization)​
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If the RMB had not lost value since 2013 the China´s GDP would have reached about $14,157 (2024-01-31) exchange rate. Because of the weak RMB, China has fallen below the World´s average GDP per capita. China is in terms of GDP per capita (in USD) less productive than Mexico, Saint Lucia, Turkey, Argentina, Malaysia, Russia, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan.

I understand that there are politics, economic strategy and monetary policy involved here but still. Several members on this forum have argued that China would pass the USA`s GDP between 2025-2030.


There are no indication this event will happen in the 2020s. Mainstream economics indicate that China´s GDP (and GDP per capita) is falling in relation to other countries. This can in part can be explained by the weak RMB.

I want to add something that will not be popular among many members. China is not third world country in the sense of Burundi. China has always been technically superior to Africa with the exception of white-ruled apartheid South Africa. Contemporary China is in many ways similar to the United Kingdom during Victorian era (1837-1901). A small and rich industrial and government elite that rule the people through a class of modestly wealthy and well-paid cohort of civil servants and professionals in the private industry.

Below the managerial class you find the working class. A class that to large extent consists of semi-skilled workers that work unsafe and dangerous factories for little money. China has also a growing class of poor urban workers. They sell what they find along the streets or in small shops. Many of them also work in the bottom of the service sector - driving food to the aloof managerial class. These workers live in slums with diseases, crime and poverty between the skyscrapers and modern high-rise buildings. Rural China is still intact and 7.5% of Chinese GDP stem from a agriculture. The lives of Chinese rural peasants lives has not changed much and they contribute little per capita to the economy.

The average salary in the private industry is $770/month (2022). The average salary for a worker in government is $1340/month. These massive diffrences between an overpaid class of civil servants and everyone else are typical for developing countries. The median salary is no doubt much lower. This is how Chongqing look behind the finance, business and shopping districts.


Of course images like above is expected as Chinese workers make so little money. In June 2023 the youth unemployment in China hit 21%. By the end of 2023 it had dropped to 15% more in line with 2022. China, like so many other countries, think that (mass)production of college students will solve this issue. This has been tried and failed all over the world., in Sweden, India, South Africa, Brazil, Canada and the United States. With automatization, increased corporate efficiency and lack of opportunity other than menial work many college educated Chinese youth will stay poor.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Only a few countries have been able to reach a developed social and economic level. These are the Eastern European EU-members that were lifted by the European Union and Israel. Israel was lifted by the United States and the Jewish diaspora. The others are Singapore, South Korea and Japan. The only countries in Asia that show potential are China and Vietnam. China seem to fail it´s mission.

This cannot have happened if China had failed its mission:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
IMG_6262.jpeg

For China to double the US in the sales of the most expensive consumerable any household can make there must be a well-off class of people that is double the size of the United States. But that consumer class in China is probably even larger because far more Chinese can live without car than can Americans with their suburban driving culture.

Conservatively, that means at least 700M Chinese can afford a car. Doubling the amount of Americans -- who are supporting a car market half the size. But there are hundreds of millions of Chinese households who can afford a car but never needed to buy one because of HSR, Metros and other public transportation and also the way that Chinese cities and towns are structured -- in China you can shop every day without a car.

This is replicated across many sectors not just cars.

China is a developing country with a lot of room to grow. But it is the one developing country that buys more than the richest developed country. You won't see that kind of consumption from any other billion-population developing country so it is not just size of the Chinese population but its spending power.
 
Last edited:

meedicx

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Since people are debating US and China GDP. Some interesting stats on US GDP in 2023 based on the latest BEA report.

Service Consumption is 2x higher than Goods Consumption. Health care consumption alone is 11% of GDP; Housing is also 11% of GDP. Health Care, Housing and Insurance service consumption is almost 30% of US GDP.

Food spending (including restaurants/hotels) is also 10% of GDP.

IP Investments (software, R&D, movies/music/etc) is 5% of GDP, which is higher than residential investment.


Screenshot 2024-01-31 144832.png


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Compared to China, US consumption is 2/3rd of GDP while China is about 1/3rd. Fixed investment, the ratio is flipped and government expenditures is about the same at 16-17%.
 
Top