Chinese Economics Thread

azn_cyniq

Junior Member
Registered Member
Germany with on the cutting edge of Industry like Siemens, Bosch or in software industry like SAP, Or in Biotech BionTech ( MRNA Covid Vaccine) is less useful than India with 50% people still working in Agriculture and no world class company? Hahaha. You live in Fantasy land it seems.

Germany may have declined but it still a huge force in the world of business and industry. To dismiss Germany just because you dislike its recent political or geopolitical decisions is foolish at best.

India has nothing going for it except a huge population for the world to sell to. That's the only reason companies invest there, to sell it more goods. What is India selling to the world?


Again Germany US or the west in general maybe in decline. But that doesn't mean they are not on top of the world. They are still on top. China is gaining massively each year. But its still too weak to fight the west. Its industry is still maturing and moving up the value chain. Its technology is still in catch up mode. Its financial system still not mature enough to open up.

These are the things China itself says about itself. That it still has long ways to go towards economic number 1 position. Using GDP PPP to try to make China number 1 is just boasting or posturing. This is what India does to try to make itself SupaPAWA.
I agree with most of your points. Germany is still one of the world's greatest scientific and technological powers. Taken as a whole, Germany still produces a large number of the world's most important scientific and technological breakthroughs.

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Judging by this list, China will have an extraordinarily bright future, but we shouldn't pretend that Germany isn't doing exceptionally well with only around 80 million people. Germany is a world-leader in scientific instrumentation (especially microscopy and electron-beam lithography), optics, robotics, pharmaceuticals, power electronics, chemicals, and other highly-important industries. Germany's software and high-end semiconductor industries are laggards, but that doesn't change the fact that Germany is still one of the world's most important industrial powers.

What does India have? Is there anything that India provides to the world, other than billions of lines of substandard code and millions of nepotistic employees, that cannot be provided by other countries?
 

56860

Senior Member
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I agree with most of your points. Germany is still one of the world's greatest scientific and technological powers. Taken as a whole, Germany still produces a large number of the world's most important scientific and technological breakthroughs.

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Judging by this list, China will have an extraordinarily bright future, but we shouldn't pretend that Germany isn't doing exceptionally well with only around 80 million people. Germany is a world-leader in scientific instrumentation (especially microscopy and electron-beam lithography), optics, robotics, pharmaceuticals, power electronics, chemicals, and other highly-important industries. Germany's software and high-end semiconductor industries are laggards, but that doesn't change the fact that Germany is still one of the world's most important industrial powers.

What does India have? Is there anything that India provides to the world, other than billions of lines of substandard code and millions of nepotistic employees, that cannot be provided by other countries?
Germany's industry is more technologically advanced, but India has a far larger economy.

Both of these things can be true at the same time.
 

azn_cyniq

Junior Member
Registered Member
Germany's industry is more technologically advanced, but India has a far larger economy.

Both of these things can be true at the same time.
You're absolutely right. India's economy is larger and that is a fact. However, Germany's economy is still much more valuable to the rest of the world. Much of Germany's economic output is in demand in the rest of the world, which is one of the reasons why Germany's nominal GDP is greater than India's. The vast majority of India's economic output is not in demand. India has a large market, but what can India provide in return for your goods and services? What can you buy with rupees? Refined petroleum? Diamonds? Rice? You can easily get those elsewhere. India is a country where malnourished, substandard people produce substandard products and services. The sale of one hundred million bacteria-infested panipuris on the streets of Mumbai may be "worth more" than the sale of one scanning electron microscope from Germany, but it should be clear which one is more important to the global economy. That may change in the future, but that day has not arrived yet.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
I think you and I are talking on two different wavelengths. You are just looking at the PPP dollar value of an economy and totally ignoring the power of an economy in terms of what kind of goods it actually produces or what kind of technological edge it has all over the world.
Okay, good that at least now we're not using incorrect measures anymore. Gdp is indeed not the most accurate, but in order to have a comparative measure, it must always first be normalized, if you're comparing 2 different currencies.
But I am talking about economic power not just economic size measured by how many haircuts one country does in 1 year.
Or how many bogus insurances they sell?
Yes, Several provinces in China like Shaanxi or Hubei provinces combined may have more GDP than Germany. But what kind of world class companies does those provinces have compared to Germany?
The likes of Huawei, BYD, Alibaba, DJI, SAIC, Norinco etc etc? The list is pretty much endless. Creating world class products and pushing boundaries in more or less every sector. Something only achieved in US, maybe not even anymore today, but only during the heyday of the last cold war.

I am calling Germany shit. But that's only because of the scope of comparison when you try to compare them to China. It's like saying a district level boxing champion is shit, well yeah he's shit if compared to Mike Tyson. That's just reality.
China maybe producing the most steel in the world, but is it all high quality steel used for high tech products or just low quality steel used for steel rods in buildings?
Why would they need all to be higher grade than what they actually need for a given task? But yeah they are pushing boundaries on high quality materials overall.
China maybe producing the most cars in the world. But how many of those cars are actually designed in China with a Chinese brand How many of the sensors, chips and other high tech components inside a car are made in China?
China surpassed Japan in export auto sales.

All, in more premium models. Cheaper parts both "high" and "low" tech are found anywhere internationally (including technologically lower countries like even India) for budget cars.
Most of China's GDP from manufactuing is still contract manufacturing for foreign brands. That's the fact. A lot of the products made in China are full of foreign high tech components and just the assembly happens in China.
Where did you get these numbers from? Most of China's economy according to official reports is due to the internal consumption base.

During peacetime, companies select what components they want based on quality vs cheapness. Not all component products have their cheapest or most cost effective version found in China. That is just business. Complaining about it is like when Americans complain they have to use Chinese components. It's capitalism. However, China has the full range of components, and for products that pride themselves on only using local and the most high end brands, they can peruse those.
But is it changing? Yes, very fast. China is developing its own brands of cars, TVs, Phones. China is moving up the value chain and producing more of the high quality components.

But it still has ways to go before it catches up to the top of technological ladder. That's the hard numbers I care about. Not the amount of raw steel rods China makes.
From objective measures, it is among the top in terms of technological products as well. But just like with economy size, plurality doesn't mean final victory. Plurality is just the start of the fight, as the other, non Chinese actors, that have nearly as much share as China still need to be wrangled.

There is much remaining between plurality in tech, economy size, and the unipolar power that China should aim for.

But in order to accurately speak about developments, our understanding of the facts need to be accurate as well.
 

Johnlee

New Member
Registered Member
Neither PPP nor nominal GDP is perfect.

Ron Unz looked at "productive GDP at PPP", namely excluding the services sector and in that regard China dominates.

View attachment 120049

But this ignores control of "chokehold sectors". For example, I think Japan and South Korea combined have a lot more control over such "choldhold sectors" that e.g. India despite them being lower in industrial PPP GDP. India's industrial sector may be big but it is very unsophisticated. That's not true for China but looking at PPP GDP alone wouldn't tell you that.

There is no perfect measurement.
Entropy, 2nd law doesnt lie, its about net EROEI and the total disperment of entropy... thats the real physics bottomline, everything else is an approximation
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Okay, good that at least now we're not using incorrect measures anymore. Gdp is indeed not the most accurate, but in order to have a comparative measure, it must always first be normalized, if you're comparing 2 different currencies.

Or how many bogus insurances they sell?

The likes of Huawei, BYD, Alibaba, DJI, SAIC, Norinco etc etc? The list is pretty much endless. Creating world class products and pushing boundaries in more or less every sector. Something only achieved in US, maybe not even anymore today, but only during the heyday of the last cold war.

I am calling Germany shit. But that's only because of the scope of comparison when you try to compare them to China. It's like saying a district level boxing champion is shit, well yeah he's shit if compared to Mike Tyson. That's just reality.

Why would they need all to be higher grade than what they actually need for a given task? But yeah they are pushing boundaries on high quality materials overall.

China surpassed Japan in export auto sales.

All, in more premium models. Cheaper parts both "high" and "low" tech are found anywhere internationally (including technologically lower countries like even India) for budget cars.

Where did you get these numbers from? Most of China's economy according to official reports is due to the internal consumption base.

During peacetime, companies select what components they want based on quality vs cheapness. Not all component products have their cheapest or most cost effective version found in China. That is just business. Complaining about it is like when Americans complain they have to use Chinese components. It's capitalism. However, China has the full range of components, and for products that pride themselves on only using local and the most high end brands, they can peruse those.

From objective measures, it is among the top in terms of technological products as well. But just like with economy size, plurality doesn't mean final victory. Plurality is just the start of the fight, as the other, non Chinese actors, that have nearly as much share as China still need to be wrangled.

There is much remaining between plurality in tech, economy size, and the unipolar power that China should aim for.

But in order to accurately speak about developments, our understanding of the facts need to be accurate as well.
It's hilarious to argue that cheaper goods at equal quality is worse.

The whole question of "but are the sensors Chinese" is even more hilarious. I dont even need to bother looking up who builds more car sensors because its irrelevant.

Car sensors are dirt cheap. You can get commercial grade automotive oxygen sensors on Amazon for $20 or something. The majority of cost is in the labor at shops to access the exhaust and install it. You need a hydraulic jack or be willing to go underneath a dirty car. Not cheap.

You know what's not? The battery for EVs. Here the cost is mostly in the product and not in installation. And Germany imports their EV batteries from China.

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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oxford Economics predicts average 4% annual growth for China's economy 2024-8:

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Her opinion does not count, since, it looks like she's of Chinese descent, therefore easily manipulated and maybe even have an internal bias in favour of the See See Pee. Heck, for all we know, she's been working undercover for the See See Pee all these years to damage the sterling reputation of quality institutions like Oxford economics among many others in the western world as part of the See See Pees goal of global dominance. Future analysis from Gordon Chang, and many FLG acolytes retard.
 

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
Her opinion does not count, since, it looks like she's of Chinese descent, therefore easily manipulated and maybe even have an internal bias in favour of the See See Pee. Heck, for all we know, she's been working undercover for the See See Pee all these years to damage the sterling reputation of quality institutions like Oxford economics among many others in the western world as part of the See See Pees goal of global dominance. Future analysis from Gordon Chang, and many FLG acolytes retard.
Uh, is China Daily not a legitimate source then?
 
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