Chinese Economics Thread

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
China´s third-quarter economic data questioned.

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Heres a Point of View from DOR, a fellow member over at W.A.B. which I felt is worthy of quoting.

"Three basic rules of thumb for Chinese GDP data:

1) Always include a 20% margin of error. There is no difference between 7% and 8.4% (or, 5.6%). A "slowdown from 8.9% to 8.5%" is meaningless.

2) The pace of GDP is like shifting gears in a car: Slowly forward, faster forward and illegal. Don’t bother registering the speed when going in reverse.

3) When examining a real GDP growth figure from developing economies, disregard everything to the right of the decimal point. Consider the first digit to the left of the decimal with great care, and only put any real faith in the second figure to the left of the decimal."


Meanwhile some regular readers of the WSJ might have read this

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The Weekend Interview with Zhang Weiying: China's Anti-Keynesian Insurgent - WSJ.com
Beijing

It's a rare afternoon in the Chinese capital when smog hasn't blocked the skies, and one of China's most famous economists is in a sanguine mood. The economy is in trouble as the Communist Party heads for a once-in-a-decade transfer of power while prosecuting its former golden boy, Bo Xilai, on criminal charges. Worried investors want signs that Beijing remains committed to growth—and the sign they'd most like to see is a big Keynesian stimulus.

Zhang Weiying would say that they're wrong to panic. The economic slowdown, he calmly says over tea, is actually good news that "makes the government think we need to change"—toward reform and away from priming the pump. We aren't all Keynesians now in China, he insists.

Three years ago, Keynesianism was official policy. The 2008 financial crisis had Beijing gloating over the failure of the free-market "Washington Consensus" and touting the "China Model" of government intervention. Keynesianism fit the statist zeitgeist and Beijing then suffered an export slump, so the government allocated $3.5 trillion—or about 50% of gross domestic product—in bank loans and direct spending.

Mr. Zhang's academic colleagues were all praise for the "China Model," but in 2009 he was giving speeches entitled "Bury Keynesianism." Then a top administrator at Peking University, where he now teaches economics, he argued that since the financial crisis was caused by easy money, it couldn't be solved by the same. "The current economy is like a drug addict, and the prescription from the doctor is morphine, so the final result will be much worse," he said.

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Zina Saunders

He invoked the ideas of the late Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek and the Austrian School of Economics to argue that if the economy weren't allowed to adjust on its own, China's minor bust would be followed by a bigger one. He also advocated doing away with existing distortions such as the monopolies enjoyed in many industries by state-owned enterprises.

Those were the days when China was fast becoming the world's second-largest economy (growth in one 2010 quarter crossed 11% on an annual basis), so the establishment was in no mood to listen. "When I criticized the central government's stimulus policy, many senior officials were not happy," Mr. Zhang says. It might not have helped that at last year's World Economic Forum in China he called the government's powerful National Development and Reform Commission "a bunch of smart people doing something really stupid."

Ultimately, Beijing's stimulus fed a false investment boom that stoked asset bubbles—then the morphine wore off while the government tightened. Officials claim the economy grew at 7.6% year-on-year between April and June this year. Skeptics think the real number is closer to 4%. (One London research house says 1%.) Meanwhile, industries dominated or favored by the state, such as steel or solar power, are idling from overcapacity. Countless sheets of copper are reportedly stacked in warehouses, blocking doorways and exemplifying Hayek's notion of "malinvestment."

In other words, the stimulus was a poster child for Mr. Zhang's Austrian theories. And the sheer size of the failure suddenly has people paying attention. "The Keynesian policy didn't deliver what it promised," he says, so "more and more people realize that . . . when the government makes investment [in] something that's useless, recession will come."

Chinese officials no longer treat Mr. Zhang as a pariah. He reports that Ministry of Agriculture officials tell him they enjoy reading his articles. Other ministries and local governments, including in Henan and Liaoning provinces, invite him to speak. He says that when he recently wrote an article praising the late Austrian economist Murray Rothbard, the Communist Party secretary of Shanghai—a fairly high-level apparatchik—told him he liked it.

Could Austrian sympathies be percolating right to the top of Chinese officialdom? Last month, Premier Wen Jiabao called the stimulus a "scientific response" to the crisis and tried to refute the charge that the country "paid an undue price" for it. He sounded like someone forced to defend against internal challengers who had been reading Hayek—or Zhang Weiying.

Mr. Zhang didn't identify with the Austrian school until 2008, when he presented a paper at an economics conference in Chicago and someone told him he sounded like a Hayek acolyte. He says he'd always thought this way.

The 52-year-old was born in rural Shaanxi province in north-central China. In a country where party officials and tiger mothers compete to brainwash youth, he escaped both.

"Rural areas were not so polluted by [party] ideology," he says. "My parents were illiterate," he adds, and once he began his education, they couldn't understand the ideas he brought home from school. "That means they never interfered."

Mr. Zhang has been charting his own way since he was a graduate student in economics in Shaanxi. He wrote a newspaper article in 1983 arguing that money wasn't evil. For that crime, critics from the still-powerful anticapitalist camp tore into him. There was a danger he wouldn't be able to graduate with a degree, but "thankfully, China's political climate changed in a very short time."

In the mid-1980s, under party leader Deng Xiaoping, officials were moving to liberalize the economy. Yet they were sometimes clueless. After decades of a planned economy, says Mr. Zhang, "the price [of everything] was distorted" and the government's solution was to "set up a price research center with a big computer . . . and adjust prices according to this calculation." Of course, "they couldn't get any results."

This gave Mr. Zhang his first break. In his graduate thesis, he considered the possibility of having one price system remain government-controlled and leaving another to the market, with industries moving slowly from the first track to the second. He impressed policy makers with the idea at a 1984 conference, and they adopted it, giving Mr. Zhang a job with the State Commission for Reforming the Economic System. The stint turned him off from policy-making. Bureaucrats rarely "rock the boat," he says. "Making policy is a political process . . . a compromise."

Looking for a world where he didn't have to compromise, he went to Oxford, where he studied for an economics doctorate. On returning to China in 1994, he co-founded the China Center for Economic Research at Peking University, the country's oldest modern institution of higher learning.

Mr. Zhang says he prefers the academic marketplace of ideas rather than policies, but he stands out there too. Unlike the Chinese tribe of reformer-economists who see themselves as technocrats chipping away at statism, Mr. Zhang thinks in stark moral terms. In a speech this year, he invoked Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas to argue that there is such a thing as natural law and that the right to property is "passed prior to sovereignty."

The flip side of this freedom to pursue success is being able to stomach failure, which is where Mr. Zhang's affinity for Hayek ties in. Austrians frown even on central banks trying to manipulate demand because, as Mr. Zhang tells it, "when you make a mistake, you must take responsibility."

"If you suffer today, it's a small suffering. But if you don't have that suffering today," tomorrow "you'll have a big suffering." Letting people know that truth, he says, "is what an economist or scholar should do."

Leaders should do this too, and he talks excitedly about the late 1990s, when the Asian economic crisis spurred the party to privatize state companies, even if it left 20 million unemployed. The crisis had brought Indonesia and others to their knees, says Mr. Zhang, and China's leaders understood at the time that "the lesson was not to have crony capitalism" and a bloated public sector.

Back then, the intellectual tide was going in Mr. Zhang's direction. State-controlled CCTV proclaimed him "Economist of the Year" in 2002, and he remembers that at Peking University "the whole culture was reform-oriented too." He was appointed assistant president of the university that year and later dean of the Guanghua School of Management, where he pushed reform.

The reforms proved successful, but the reformer was crucified. The old guard in the faculty lounges revolted, while accusations impugning Mr. Zhang's loyalty and questioning his credentials swirled over the Internet. He was forced out of his Guanghua post in 2010.

Much of the trouble stemmed from internal campus politics, but he also says that the broader "environment changed." China's universities are a product of a planned economy, so "if the whole country [was] in the good process of reform, people like me won't be treated like that."

What happened? China's leadership team of Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao, in place since 2002, reversed reforms. Rising inequality was the original excuse for favoring the public sector and, one suspects, high growth soon convinced policy makers to continue on that path. The new mantra in Beijing was "guo jin, min tui"—the state advances, the private sector retreats.

When the financial crisis struck Beijing jumped at the chance to advance the state even further. The poor economic result is now front and center, but Mr. Zhang says the past decade has also seen dramatic social problems that help alter the climate of opinion. The Chinese people have watched bureaucrats distribute resources to state companies and their friends, and popular perceptions of corruption and inequality have grown. Far from a crisis of markets, he says, Beijing is facing a crisis of state.

That is why Mr. Zhang is hopeful for reforms. He proposes restarting privatization, which he says is easier to do now because "some of these companies are listed on exchanges." Overhauling the financial system is next, since state companies use the banks as ATMs and deprive entrepreneurs of formal loans.

Can we expect such a liberalization right after the new crop of leaders is anointed in mid-November? He says that Guangdong Party Secretary Wang Yang, a contender for the top decision-making body, is a "real reformer." But otherwise he admits that Chinese politics is a black box.

Is there a possibility that Beijing will turn to another stimulus to goose GDP? "Certainly things could go worse. But there could also be good opportunity," he says. What he does know is that people's way of thinking has changed. It's just that the "impact is implicit, not explicit" in China's nondemocracy.

Mr. Zhang is optimistic because he thinks 30 years of openness have altered expectations. "We have a lot of trust in" markets today, which is why the last decade's anti-market turn has exasperated people. Mass protests against land grabs and other government bullying now number 180,000 a year, according to government data compiled at Beijing's Tsinghua University. These protests are hard for the party to ignore—and powerfully make the moral case for free markets.

"We human beings always seek happiness," says Mr. Zhang. "Now there are two ways. You make yourself happy by making other people unhappy—I call that the logic of robbery. The other way, you make yourself happy by making other people happy—that's the logic of the market. Which way do you prefer?"

Mr. Bhattacharya is an editorial page writer for The Wall Street Journal Asia.

A version of this article appeared October 13, 2012, on page A11 in the U.S. edition of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: China's Anti-Keynesian Insurgent.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
All those people that question the reliability of Chinese data should also check other country data as well. Statistic is not exact science everybody use different indices that might be acceptable to one country might not be for other country so everything is relative. Considering so much of Chinese economic activity carry under he radar of official statistic I think they are under reporting if anything.

With consumer retail gone up by double digit for the last 5 years. Industrial production grow by 9% and investment by whopping 20% .All the while inflation is minuscule of 2% The quarterly result certainly show an upside

All those anti Keynesian expert should check with their shrink. China is underdeveloped country that need massive infrastructure without it good cannot be sold because lack of transportation, Factory cannot be built inland because no way they can transport to the coast and to the world. Migrant will streaming to the city exacerbating over population and urban nightmare. The county will be divided along have and have not province.No one care of the children and elderly. think of the social cost!. Political stability will be imperiled!

Undaunted by allegation of corruption by envy and green eye westerner like Peter Osnos, China keep plodding with HSR and recently open 2 new lines Hefei-Bengpu and Dalian-Harbin line
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Read this Goldman and Sachs report by Jim O;Neill who know china best than any other socalled expert who yesterday doesn't even know where china is.

The proof is in the pudding Pew just release the latest survey on Chinese attitude toward their government and themselves almost 82% consider their live is better than anytime in their lifetime . Labor market is tight . No riot on the street unlike Greece, Spain and Portugal
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Unemployment in the eurozone hit a fresh high of 18.2 million in August, the EU statistics agency has said.

The number out of work rose by 34,000, but after the July data was revised up, it meant the unemployment rate remained stable at a record high of 11.4%.

The highest unemployment rate was recorded in Spain, where 25.1% of the workforce is out of a job, and the lowest of 4.5% was recorded in Austria.


Despite Success, Many See Problems
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While the global financial crisis has taken a serious toll in many nations over the last few years, most Chinese report continued economic progress – indeed, 70% say they are better off financially than they were five years ago. Among the 21 nations polled, Brazil is the only country where the public reports a comparable level of economic advancement. Additionally, a remarkable 92% of Chinese say their standard of living is better than their parents’ at a similar age. (For more on international economic mobility and other economic issues, see “Pervasive Gloom About the World Economy,” released July 12, 2012).

Goldman Sachs: Latest Stats Support Soft Landing for China’s Economy

By John Kimelman
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The industrial world constantly frets about whether the Chinese economy can hold up. If Jim O’Neill, the chairman of Goldman Sachs Asset Management, is any judge, the Middle Kingdom is doing just fine.

“After months of debate about a soft or hard landing, the data published since last Friday is very supportive of the optimists’ view,” O’Neill writes.

O’Neill writes that China’s consumer price index rose by 1.9% year-on-year in September, significantly below the People Bank of China’s 4% 2012 target. Moreover, a 3.6% decline in PPI suggests that near-term future inflation is not a risk.


“Inflation will probably ease further which, amongst other things, will continue to boost real Chinese income growth,” he writes.

O’Neill also writes that Chinese GDP for Q3 rose 7.4% year-on-year, in line with expectations, with statisticians stating that quarterly momentum was higher than expected at 2.2%. For the first nine months of 2012, GDP has risen 7.7%, slightly higher than goverment targets.

To top off a good week for Chinese data, O’Neill adds, industrial production rose a better than expected 9.2%, up from 8.9%. “Most importantly, retail sales rose by a much stronger than expected 14.2% which, given subdued CPI, translates into a healthy acceleration of real retail sales, a sign of rising consumer spending. ”

In conclusion, he writes that with a trade surplus a quarter below its peak, stabilised housing prices, consumption rising as a share of GDP, and inflation below target, “the situation looks good.”

O’Neill is dismissive of those who question the accuracy of China’s economic statistics. ”Chinese economic data is of course questionable, but so is everybody else’s. China’s data is certainly no worse than that of the UK,” he writes.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Get enough experts to guess what's happening in China and eventually one will be lucky enough to get into the ballpark. It's been three years since Jim Chanos predicted China's collapse. Two years since the date he said it would happen by.

What these experts forget is slave labor means no one gets paid. So all the drop in orders from the West these experts say will collapse China have no effect because slave labor doesn't get paid in the first place. What tea leaves out there have been a good gauge? When the West is in concensus bashing China, it means it's really bad with them. As one Western article previously posted in here noted, the whole point of spelling coming doom for China is to scare money away from China to be invested in the West. That is the means of recovery. If China is a safer bet, all the money goes there and not to them.

Like Obama hasn't been accused of fudging recent employment figures so he can gain politically? How many times have we heard Europe is on the mend to counter all the pessimism? What the difference from China? The same difference where Chinese pollution is the bad kind while the Western one is the good kind.

Anyone see Forbes China's rich list? Westerners will try to analyze and spin information that serves their agenda. What they won't go near is the majority of China's richest have no to insignifcant dealings with the West. They're rich from the domestic economy. You would figure if China's economy was so dependent on exports to the West, the majority of China's rich would be making money from the West. They're not.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
ROFL

Where/s the author getting his info from.....comic books?


The proof is in the pudding Pew just release the latest survey on Chinese attitude toward their government and themselves almost 82% consider their live is better than anytime in their lifetime . Labor market is tight . No riot on the street unlike Greece, Spain and Portugal
[/B]

It is far easier to show improvement when you are starting from 50 cents a day for wages. Futhermore in 2010, 180,000 mass incidents were reputed to have been reported throughout China. So you can't tell me that the bureaucrats in Beijing aren't concerned.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
It is far easier to show improvement when you are starting from 50 cents a day for wages. Futhermore in 2010, 180,000 mass incidents were reputed to have been reported throughout China. So you can't tell me that the bureaucrats in Beijing aren't concerned.

Any country under going rapid change in social economy will experience some dislocation it is normal while the social safety net is not yet built. But people should put it in perspective . People doesn't ask for regime chance they don't want democracy because they realize that is not the answer. You just have to go thru the growing up. pain. Any country will go thru the same phase.

The pew research confirm it . The Chinese government did tremendous job in lifting 500 million out of grinding poverty no human right is more basic and important than freedom from hunger, want and destitute It give back the human dignity.

People should not compare China to western Europe or USA the should compare it to India and Indonesia

China GDP/person grew years by years.China is now middle income country excellent infrastructure basic health care for 700 million people that cover 70% of expenses, pension for old age, Urban population of 50%, Early sign of prosperity, mandatory schooling and literacy rate of 96%. 4% unemployment, Expected lifetime of 76, 1 month vacation, Everybody have roof over their head. Yes they never had it so good. Like I say compare it to India and Indonesia
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By the end of 2011, over 95 percent of the country's population were covered by basic medicare insurance programs designed for employees, urban residents and rural residents, according to the report.

The annual government subsidy for urban and rural residents' insurance was increased from 80 yuan per person in 2008 to 200 yuan in 2011, and the sum will be raised to 240 yuan this year, its authors found.

Central government invested 63 billion yuan between 2009 and 2011 in the construction and improvement of 33,000 hospitals at grass-roots levels.

Furthermore, reform programs have been launched in over 2,000 public hospitals across the country, the report noted.

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180000 incident is nothing for 1.3 billion people in throw of rapid economy and social progress!. it also show that Chinese can express themselves!

Meanwhile the west is going down the drain! Unemployment of 25% in Greece,Spain and entire generation is lost and soon Portugal, Italy and French will follow. So much for living on the hog, money doesn't grow on the tree

Youth unemployment remains a particular concern, with the rate among under-25s hitting 22.8% across the eurozone, and 52.9% in Spain.

The commission repeated its call to governments and businesses to act to try to avoid the "disaster" of "a lost generation".

In Greece, the most recent figures recorded in June show that more than 50% of the young workforce has no job.


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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
"Basic" is just that. Anything more than that such as severe illness or surgical operations they have to pay forfrom savings.Thats why the majority of the people remain circumspect on how they spend.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
"Basic" is just that. Anything more than that such as severe illness or surgical operations they have to pay forfrom savings.Thats why the majority of the people remain circumspect on how they spend.

You think that is bad eh? Well my friend 44 million of American have no health care at all even the basic health care.

Health care was never meant to replace personal responsibility and caring, saving for family. No country can afford 100% reimbursement for long . That is what western country try to do and we can see what is the result. There is no manna from heaven . But at least China has a plan and Rome is not built in a day. They only finish first phase of Health care program . As more money available they will improve their health care system. My understanding is by 2015 they will increase the reimbursement and just this year they increase the number of disease and procedure that included in basic coverage at the same time reducing hundreds of prescription drug cost

Alicia suffers from Multiple Sclerosis and is uninsured. She has two children (ages 10 & 12) who take care of her at home. She is confined to a wheelchair and can't afford home care.

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44 million Americans are uninsured, and eight out of ten of these are workers or their dependents. Why is being uninsured a problem?

About 44 million people in this country have no health insurance, and another 38 million have inadequate health insurance. This means that nearly one-third of Americans face each day without the security of knowing that, if and when they need it, medical care is available to them and their families.

Having no health insurance also often means that people will postpone necessary care and forego preventive care - such as childhood immunizations and routine check-ups-completely. Because the uninsured usually have no regular doctor and limited [/Disease Coverage


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The ministry is also in the process of implementing coverage of 20 major diseases, including child leukemia and lung cancer, under the insurance program, according to the statement.

Coverage by commercial insurers, now present in 140 county- level regions, mainly in the country’s east and central regions, will be available in more districts, Vice Minister Liu Qian said at the briefing. China has 2,853 county-level districts.

“Based on global experience, it is not possible to fully rely on basic medical insurance from the government,” Liu said. “Opening it up to commercial insurance products can be more effective.”

Spending on health care in the country is forecast to almost triple to $1 trillion by 2020, McKinsey & Co. said in a report last month.

China also plans to expand the accessibility of essential drugs, Chen said, without elaborating on the steps to be taken. The nation will unveil an expanded essential drugs list before the end of the year and hasn’t decided how many medicines to include, the minister said Sept. 12.

The health ministry, which manages rural residents’ health insurance program, plans to expand per capita funding to at least 360 yuan ($57) by 2015, from 300 yuan this year, it said in a statement issued at the briefing. The amount climbed more than eightfold from 2003 to 250 yuan last year and covered 812 million people, or 95 percent of the rural population, as of June 30, 2012, according to ministry figures.
 
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J-XX

Banned Idiot
Get enough experts to guess what's happening in China and eventually one will be lucky enough to get into the ballpark. It's been three years since Jim Chanos predicted China's collapse. Two years since the date he said it would happen by.

What these experts forget is slave labor means no one gets paid. So all the drop in orders from the West these experts say will collapse China have no effect because slave labor doesn't get paid in the first place. What tea leaves out there have been a good gauge? When the West is in concensus bashing China, it means it's really bad with them. As one Western article previously posted in here noted, the whole point of spelling coming doom for China is to scare money away from China to be invested in the West. That is the means of recovery. If China is a safer bet, all the money goes there and not to them.

Like Obama hasn't been accused of fudging recent employment figures so he can gain politically? How many times have we heard Europe is on the mend to counter all the pessimism? What the difference from China? The same difference where Chinese pollution is the bad kind while the Western one is the good kind.

Anyone see Forbes China's rich list? Westerners will try to analyze and spin information that serves their agenda. What they won't go near is the majority of China's richest have no to insignifcant dealings with the West. They're rich from the domestic economy. You would figure if China's economy was so dependent on exports to the West, the majority of China's rich would be making money from the West. They're not.

This is exactly the reason.
I've been watching CNBC and they have been extremely negative on china recently.
Even the hosts that were neutral towards china before have been spelling doom on china even comparing china with the European crisis.
Yet no one talks about America's bond bubble.
It as if the producers of CNBC have been told to talk down china and talk up the US to get money flowing to the US and out of china.

Hardly any china bulls get on CNBC nowadays, its mostly china bears.
This is done deliberately.

In fact most western media have been doing this.

It just goes to show how much the west fears china, they are rattled. This is the problem with china having no media influence. The western media is on a crusade to bring down the Chinese economy by talking about 'hard landing' and 'collapse'.
When you get good news the data is dismissed as 'fake'.

You don't need to be a genius to figure out that the western media is trying to lure investors out of china and into the west, especially the US.

Jim Chanos has been the poster boy for the western media on china 'collapse'.
This dude couldn't spell china 3 years ago is now seen as the number 1 'expert' on the Chinese economy even though he admits that he has never ever visited china.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
You notice all the predicters of doom for China are from the stock market? They make all their money when money is flowing through them. The reason why they don't like China is because regulations prevent them from manipulating the market there. That's why they can only bet against Western companies that do business with China which is like shooting yourself in the foot. Wall Street is moved by myopic rumor and gossip. Not something anyone can rely for real information. Look at how their greed caused the 2008 finacial crisis. Look at Bernie Madoff. He didn't care how he stole from everyone who had invested with him. He saw it as their own fault.

Western countries would love to have 7% growth like China. But they make it out that if China goes below it, it's equivalent to a depression. They said before China was overheating and must work to slow the economy. When that happens they then declare a collapse. It couldn't be because China is control of the economy engineering a slowdown. Remember a few years back they said China was hoarding commodities unusually buying them up despite lack of manufacturing demand. Now a lot of commodities prices are falling because China isn't buying. Of course they forget again China was hoarding and the lack of buying is a sign of doom.

They believe China fudges the figures. Look how everyone except Mitt Romney who charged China with currency manipulation before have been muted with China's economic downturn. Those charges did come up in the first place because China's economy was doing well compared to the rest since the 2008 finanacial crisis. It's an interesting coincidence where shouldn't they believe China is again manipulating the figures to make it look like the country is doing bad to reduce criticism of currency manipulation? Why not since they accused China of lowering down figures to make people believe China wasn't overheating? They'll believe China fudges its figure when it suits their purpose. What it says is they want to believe in anything that is bad for China and not anything realistic. So how can anyone believe what they say is happening in China when it's more wishful thinking than fact.
 

delft

Brigadier
This headline says it:
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And the article is interesting.
The original problem was excessive money creation. Homeopathy would suggest treating the disease with a few millon dollars/pounds. Instead the medicine is hundreds of billions of them. As if you prescribed four bottles of gin a day to a drunk. But this indeed makes it impossible to determine realistic GDP data in Western countries.
 
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