Chinese Economics Thread

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Succiently and clearly explains why China has a """high""" youth unemployment rate but a booming economy and normal overall unemployment.

American bots and public "intellectuals" will keep desparately grasping after straws. The raw fact is, growth of 5-7% on the world's largest economy IS a signficant boom.

And there's no way they can catch up.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Youth unemployment is a peculiar stats in China. We know there is a lack of labor and increasing wage growth in manufacturing which is partly what is driving the China Plus 1 strategy of exporters, both foreign and domestic:
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There is also the "Lie Flat" movement that came as the result of the "996" overwork tendency in Chinese private firms especially in technology.

So I don't think it is an issue of jobs creation (which is the main underlying concern of umemployment) but that of rising expectations as well as a societal shift from "living to work" to "working to live" in China.

Basically, the young are are holding out for better jobs or no jobs at all if they can swing it.

This is not the mass of the proletariat needing to work of they starve. It is youngsters, more educated than ever before, looking for something better.

Not overly concerning in my opinion. China needs to automate its factories faster and working on providing more jobs for its educated class.

Which is a good thing that China uses AI for industry and manufacturing instead of ChatGPT-type soft-production on analysis and office work. China's mismatch is an abundance of factory jobs and a corresponding lack of office related white-collar ones.
So, the following may or may not apply in China's case, due to the way in which unemployment is calculated in China. But we'll assume for the purpose of argument that high youth unemployment is actually a fact. Then what's the problem with this?

Well, the underlying cause for the "middle income trap" is actually the trend of de-industrialization in the developing world, which is a phenomenon that combines low services employment (associated with developing countries) with low manufacturing employment (associated with developed countries), leading to most people working in the "informal" economy of side jobs. This is basically a source for less productive work like food delivery, uber driving, phone scams, street begging, prostitution, drug dealing, etc.

It's basically what happens when you fail to effectively transition to high value, high profit, knowledge based industries from low value, low profit manufacturing based industries, which commonly happens because the labor force isn't ready for a knowledge based economy by the time the country needs to become one, so the vast majority of workers get left behind and have to resort to barely surviving off of the informal economy, since they lack the skill for the finance, medicine, engineering, science, law, etc. jobs you typically find in a knowledge based economy.

If China gets on this path and fails to find employment for its youths, it could end up in the exact same situation most of Latin America ended up in - where their GDP per capita simply stopped growing and most workers ended up being employed by the informal economy, because they weren't qualified for anything else. That creates a negative cycle that eventually leads back into poverty.

The way to solve this, just so you know, is via 1) higher quality education and 2) economic policy that rewards said education using equal opportunity advancement through merit, as opposed to rent seeking behavior.
 
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KYli

Brigadier
Anyone still talking about middle income trap is delusional. China is way pass middle income trap. China's industry power is unmatched in the world. China's high end manufacturing is expanding. China's domination in new industries such as EV, solar, and winds are extraordinary.

As for youth unemployment, it isn't much of issue. There are plenty of jobs from the private sector. It is just that many new graduates don't want these kinds of jobs. Instead, they prefer government jobs even if just temporary ones. The problem is for female liberal art students from third tier colleges that are not able to find jobs. Most STEM students or top universities graduates both males or females have no problem finding jobs. Most male graduates have no problem of finding jobs as they are more willing to take gag jobs or manufacturing jobs or small firm jobs.

For China, the problem is not middle income trap. The problem is China to be fully developed and become highest income economy would require an enormous market that the Western market and the rest of the world can no longer provide. China needs to rely more and more on its own especially domestic consumption. As we witnessed, China is taking over its own auto sector as the domestic champion rises. China also imports much less chemical and chips as domestic plants are up and running which would cut costs and provide jobs for China at the expense of countries such as South Korea and Japan. This process is slow but I don't see anything can stop China from getting there.
 

Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyone still talking about middle income trap is delusional. China is way pass middle income trap. China's industry power is unmatched in the world. China's high end manufacturing is expanding. China's domination in new industries such as EV, solar, and winds are extraordinary.

As for youth unemployment, it isn't much of issue. There are plenty of jobs from the private sector. It is just that many new graduates don't want these kinds of jobs. Instead, they prefer government jobs even if just temporary ones. The problem is for female liberal art students from third tier colleges that are not able to find jobs. Most STEM students or top universities graduates both males or females have no problem finding jobs. Most male graduates have no problem of finding jobs as they are more willing to take gag jobs or manufacturing jobs or small firm jobs.

For China, the problem is not middle income trap. The problem is China to be fully developed and become highest income economy would require an enormous market that the Western market and the rest of the world can no longer provide. China needs to rely more and more on its own especially domestic consumption. As we witnessed, China is taking over its own auto sector as the domestic champion rises. China also imports much less chemical and chips as domestic plants are up and running which would cut costs and provide jobs for China at the expense of countries such as South Korea and Japan. This process is slow but I don't see anything can stop China from getting there.
Industrial power doesn't necessarily mean you escape the middle income trap.

GDP per capita is the only relevant definition. Everything else is secondary. You could literally be forced into a middle income trap if nobody buys your products - however advanced - due to sanctions & you don't have the consumption to make up for that gap in demand.

All that matters, in the end, for continued wealth generation is the continued growth of both supply & demand. Middle income countries fall into the trap for various reasons. A common pattern is supply side bottle necks due to lack of necessary talent. But demand bottle necks can also exist.

This isn't a binary condition. It's not a case of "if you're out, you're out."

It's a persistent battle to escape stagnation.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Industrial power doesn't necessarily mean you escape the middle income trap.

GDP per capita is the only relevant definition. Everything else is secondary. You could literally be forced into a middle income trap if nobody buys your products - however advanced - due to sanctions & you don't have the consumption to make up for that gap in demand.

All that matters, in the end, for continued wealth generation is the continued growth of both supply & demand. Middle income countries fall into the trap for various reasons. A common pattern is supply side bottle necks due to lack of necessary talent. But demand bottle necks can also exist.

This isn't a binary condition. It's not a case of "if you're out, you're out."

It's a persistent battle to escape stagnation.

Overall, I think that demand for talent matters more than supply.

At long as there is demand from local technology companies who are happy to make long-term investments, the supply side should eventually catch up.

That means a stable and supportive business environment with end-demand for technology products.
 

zbb

Junior Member
Registered Member
China's GDP per capita is right around the World Bank threshold between high income and upper middle income countries. However,
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, meaning that China's official GDP is significantly understated.

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Many people see the extremely low share of consumption to GDP as indicative of repressed spending and the high share of investment as waste. Yet few pause to wonder why until the recent slowdown, the news was all about double-digit sales growth rates in the luxury goods, fast-food outlet and home furnishing sectors. How can one reconcile retail sales that were growing at 15-20 per cent a year for decades with GDP numbers that suggest lacklustre growth in personal consumption? This raises suspicions that something is amiss, quite possibly that consumption is seriously understated. A 2008 Morgan Stanley study estimated that Chinese GDP was about 30 per cent higher than official figures, and per capita consumption was as much as 80 per cent higher. Some research surveys show that household income has been understated by some 20-30 per cent of GDP.

There is some official support for such views. The head of the national accounts department at China’s bureau of statistics acknowledged in 2009 that its household consumption figures are deficient. The statistics are based on an obsolete, 30-year-old sample survey; do not take full account of cash transactions; do not include fully non-cash provision of social services; and have not been adjusted to reflect the market values for owner-occupied housing. Moreover, as a result of high sales taxes, businesses often do not issue receipts leading to household purchases being underreported.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
I calculated that the absolute number of unemployed youth (16-24 yo) in China is about 13 millions. The actual number is likely smaller because some might have given up looking for jobs.

School students are not counted in labor force. In China, kids start their primary education at the age of 7. At 16, most of them are admitted to high schools (including vocational schools) after 9 years of mandatory education. At the age of 19, some of them are admitted to colleges. Most college students graduate after 4 years at 22.

I divided the group into 3 sub-groups by education levels:

- Those who are 23 and 24 years old are either not in school anymore or in graduate schools. They were born in 1999 and 2000 when China had 18.3 million and 17.7m new borns. In 2022, about 1 million college graduates were admitted to graduate schools. The number of graduate school admissions in 2023 is not available yet. Assuming it remains the same, then there are 34m in this group that are in job market.

- Those who are between 19 and 22 years were born in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 when the population grew by 17m, 16.4m, 16m and 15.9m respectively. In 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, 10.3m, 10.7m, 10.7m and 11.9m high school grads were admitted to colleges, respectively. For each year in this group, we then have, respectively, 6.7m, 5.7m, 5.3m and 4m who entered job market with no college education. Assuming that they are all still in the job market, that's 21.7m in total.

- The last group is between 16 and 18 years who were born in 2005, 2006 and 2007. China had 16.1m, 15.8m, and 15.9m new borns in these 3 years, respectively. High school admission rates in 2021 is 91.4%. Assuming the rate has not changed noticeably since, we have about 1.4m in job market without even a high school diploma each year. That's a total of 5.2m.

Without factoring in premature deaths, emigrations, drop-outs, studying oversea, etc., there are totally 60.9m (34 + 21.7 + 5.2 = 60.9) in job market in the age group of 16-24 yo. Given the unemployment rate of 21.3%, that's about 13m youth who need a job.


Data sources:

1. new births:
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2. college admissions:
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3. high school admission rate:
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4. graduate-school admissions:
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5. youth unemployment:
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Eventine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Overall, I think that demand for talent matters more than supply.

At long as there is demand from local technology companies who are happy to make long-term investments, the supply side should eventually catch up.

That means a stable and supportive business environment with end-demand for technology products.
I'd agree demand side is more important for China, but there are many historical examples of supply side failures. Latin American countries, in particular, which attempted to practice import substitution 50-60 years ago and failed spectacularly to become competitive with American & European industries due to lack of talent, funds, or both.

China doesn't seem to have that problem in most industries, but it has a serious problem with demand, which could cripple the economy as Japan's example showed. East Asian countries generally don't have a problem with technical competence, but they do have a problem with companies and consumers both being fiscally "cheap" - high house hold savings rates, preferring assets investments over consumption, and so failing to create the kinds of demand & employment conditions the Western world generates.

As long as the Western world is willing to buy, that's not a problem. Your just export your way out of demand deficiencies.

If the Western world stops buying, though, it could become a huge problem because exports are typically 20 to 30% of East Asian economies, and with growth rates in the 2-5% range, a major depression in exports could cause general recession & stagnation.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Industrial power doesn't necessarily mean you escape the middle income trap.

GDP per capita is the only relevant definition. Everything else is secondary. You could literally be forced into a middle income trap if nobody buys your products - however advanced - due to sanctions & you don't have the consumption to make up for that gap in demand.

All that matters, in the end, for continued wealth generation is the continued growth of both supply & demand. Middle income countries fall into the trap for various reasons. A common pattern is supply side bottle necks due to lack of necessary talent. But demand bottle necks can also exist.

This isn't a binary condition. It's not a case of "if you're out, you're out."

It's a persistent battle to escape stagnation.
Most of the developing countries that were trapped in middle income trap were due to de-industrialize and lack of industrial power. China is already way past that with everything from infrastructure, electricity consumption, and cars ownership. You are talking about the middle income trap which is around $13,000. Most of China's east coast provinces and cities have over $15,000 GDP per capita.

As for nobody buying your products, you mean a war with the US. If there were a war, then middle income trap is the last thing that you need to worry about.

Middle income countries got stuck in middle income or unable to move beyond middle income are mostly with countries that don't have their own industrial giants and champions. China has its own industrial giants and champions and dominate in many key industries.

Anglo-Saxon international liberal orders have ensured that many countries don't have a complete supply chain and rely upon the West. As we have witnessed in Russia, China is fully capable of supplying Russia with everything that it needs. That means China could survive any embargo and would come out ahead of the West as the West is much more de-industrailize and rely upon China than the other way around.

The sole reason why there is a trad war and why the US is using everything to stop China's rise is that China is the only country for centuries outside of the Western powers that has the capability and pieces in place to fully decouple with the West which scares a hell out of the Western powers that now trying to threaten China with kitchen sinks in order to stop China's rise.
 
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