Chinese Economics Thread

weig2000

Captain
They are underestimating.

However.. if China has a another covid lockdown mess Shanghai-style, then 4.4% would be about right.

So the question should be:
Do you think that China will have more such Covid lockdowns from now till the end of the year?

It's often misleading to frame the issue as economic growth vs people's lives. That might be true for a short time, say the first few months at the beginning of the covid breakout.

Now, after two and half years, the headline numbers are no longer just numbers; they also condense a lot of what's going on in the wider economy and society: rising unemployment, bankruptcies, increasing debts, missed mortgage payments, falling behind in kid's tuition, hunger, deteriorating health if not worse, divorce and suicides.

It is also not right to frame it as rich vs poor. It's actually the poor and middle class that have borne the most burden and hardship resulting from lockdowns and are most affected. At least in the US, the government printed tons of money to handover to the relatively poor. In addition, the crackdowns on tech sector and real estate sector have further contributed to the worsening prospect of middle-class and economy at large. I suppose nobody still indulges in the so-called "revenging bounce-back" after you've been through in the last few years.
 

Strangelove

Colonel
Registered Member
IMF decreased China's growth projection to 4.4%, only 0.7% higher than US at 3.7%

Thoughts? I think they're underestimating China given they have a history of doing that. They missed the mark by 2 trillion in 2021 iinm

US at 3.7%....Hahahahahahaha.

That's Jai Hind level delusion; they're in massive negative territory as real inflation is double-digits.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
This is my opinion on the Yuan internationalization issue:

CCP is facing a dilemma,they can only chose one. Either give up their current heavy-handed approach on business and economics,and promote Yuan internationalization; Or give up Yuan internationalization, and maintain their current position. You cannot have them both.

As we all know,capital control is the main obstacle of Yuan becoming a major reserve currency. But why capital control is needed?Because without capital control,capital outflow could be devastating. So here is the focal point:why China is particularly vulnerable to capital outflow but the likes of the US or UK are not?The answer is sense of security,capital needs a stable and secure market where they can safely put their money,and China is not such a place.

Remember China still and has always been a "bureaucracy standard" 官本位 nation, not a “gold standard” 金本位 nation. In China power is always prioritized over money. Having money can only get you to certain level in Chinese society no matter how rich you are,if you want to move up further you'd need power. It has been like that through out thousand years of Chinese history,merchant's social status always lower than bureaucrats. This is one of the reason business people don't feel secure about their asset in China.

The other thing is that CCP's frequent “crack-down” on certain sectors is not helping business confidence either. Think about it,if you have invested lots of money in a totally legit business, but all of a sudden the government says that the sector of your business is “undesirable”, and demands you to close the business,how would you feel?For instance the online-education sector,regardless government‘s rationale hold water or not,it is legal to run online-education business. If the government feels the sector is undesirable to the society,they can issue guidelines to regulate and phaseout it gradually. But you cannot just wipe out a legal business sector overnight with little warning,something the CCP did. Real estate sector is the same story,the sudden crack-down caused disastrous consequences. With gigantic developers go bankrupt and economic growth took a big hit. We all know real estate is overheated and needs to cool off,but you just cannot do it in “shock-therapy” fashion. Now facing economic downturn,CCP is making new policy that promotes real estate again. Ironic isn't it 早知如此何必当初. The point is CCP‘s practise on handling business is questionable. It may appear to be an easy and convenient way of regulating business in the eye of bureaucrats,but in the long term such practise weakens the sense of security of business. This is another important incentive for capital to flee China.

Of course CCP is well aware of the situation,but it is very unlikely they‘re willing to make significant compromises in near future. So I don't see capital control will loosen and Yuan become international reserve currency.

Last point is what are some downside if Yuan doesn't become international reserve currency?

(1)If the west impose financial sanctions on China similar to what they did to Russia,include kick China out of swfit,freeze Chinese banks money,confiscate China's oversea assets. China will find itself difficult to trade with countries outside of the west,because you still have to use dollar to trade. If Yuan become a international reserve currency by then,it will be very helpful.

(2)Because China's has to hold too much dollar reserve,and dollar is depreciating overtime. China has to use it to purchase US debt just to prevent dollar reserve value shrinking. And there is no other good alternative financial instruments to accommodate such large scale of money. By doing so will bring us back to the first problem,the US could freeze your money anytime but you still have to put your money in the US. Again,If Yuan is a major international reserve currency,China would not need to keep this much of dollar reserve in the first place.

There are many other reasons why Yuan internationalization could be very beneficial to China,but I just list two which I think are the most crucial ones.
Your description of how the Chinese government views capital is both accurate and how things should be. However, you are wrong in the assertion that China faces a dilemma - China is simply so vast and growing so quickly that business will eat whatever it's served. If they don't feel secure, tough; they can't quit China.

When you invest in China, you invest in the sectors the government likes if you know what's good for you.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
This is surprising to me. Japan actually has had trade deficit with China since at least 2009. I had the impression of the other way.

By their own data, Japan's export to China set a record with an increase of 14.9% YOY in 2021, to 18.2689 trillion yens (about 919.7 billion yuans). Meanwhile, import from China was 21.1651 trillion yens (1.0656 trillion yuans), also a historic high. The deficit was 2.8961 trillion yens (145.8 billion yuans).

In 2021, Japan exported more semiconductor equipments (increase by 29.7%), semiconductor components (17.5%) and organic compound (36.2%) to China. It imported more telecommunication equipments (increase by 15.6%), organic compound (48.7%) and non-ferrous metal (88.7%) from China.

Import of textile and computers (and computer peripherals) from China dropped by 30.9% and 10.3%, respectively.

日本财务省数据显示,日本2021年度对中国的贸易出口额增加了14.9%,增加至18.2689万亿日元(约合9197亿元人民币),刷新历史最高纪录。

但是,同期日本对华进口额也创下了新高。日本2021年度对华进口额增加到21.1651万亿日元(约合10656亿元人民币),存在对华2.8961万亿日元(约合1458亿元人民币)的贸易逆差。
从双边货物贸易金额情况来看,在日本对华主要出口商品中,半导体制造设备和半导体电子部件出口金额分别增长了29.7%和17.5%,有机化合物增长了36.2%。而日本从中国进口的商品中,通信设备、有机化合物和非铁类金属的金额则分别上涨了15.6%、48.7%和88.7%。

1.png2.png
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
China tax collections severely lag behind the West and the US. Hopefully, the new smart tax system would help to lower tax frauds.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Which part is severely lag behind? please elaborate, Chinese Tax revenue is around $4.4T and if the nominal GDP is ~$18T, it means the ratio is around 25%

The US tax revenue is $5.5T and GDP around $20.5T, so the ratio is 27% ..... not much different

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


France has a very high tax, revenue $1.4T with the GDP of just $3T ..... crazy high
 

KYli

Brigadier
Which part is severely lag behind? please elaborate, Chinese Tax revenue is around $4.4T and if the nominal GDP is ~$18T, it means the ratio is around 25%

The US tax revenue is $5.5T and GDP around $20.5T, so the ratio is 27% ..... not much different

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


France has a very high tax, revenue $1.4T with the GDP of just $3T ..... crazy high
When celebrity and Douyin, Alibaba, Tencent influencers that making hundreds of millions without paying much tax, then you know you have serious tax problems. Huang Wei was just fine 210 million in tax evasion. There are serious loopholes.
 
Top