Chinese Economics Thread

antiterror13

Brigadier
You can't be serious. China spent the best part of the past 60 years trying to reduce its population so as not to burdened it with hunger and poverty. And now you're advocating a policy guaranteed to burden China with poverty and hunger.

There is an optimum level of population. I think I read somewhere a long while ago. That China's is somewhere between 600 billion to 800 billion (don't quote me on it).

China still have a long way to go before it needs to encourage any more babies. This is why I think the policy to relax the one-child policy is a right one. But let's leave it at that for now, and maybe encourage a third child in twenty years time.

replace billion with million ;)

The main issue is not the total population but the proportion of the population over 65 yrs old, basically the proportion of productive workers to the total population. Japan has very high percentage population over 65 yrs old and getting higher every day, the same thing happening in Korea and EU and somewhat UK, USA, Australia and NZ. China is no different just a matter of time, perhaps in 25-30 yrs time would be in similar situation of Japan today
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quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
And there's another factor besides automation that people never consider - the possibility that aging itself could be comprehensively brought under medical control. That there could be medical procedures in the distant future (beyond 2050) that would keep people biologically young indefinitely. How does birth rate factor into a world where the death rate is near zero because no one is dying of old age anymore? This seems like science fiction now, but it's a relevant consideration on the timescales we're talking about (decades).
Watch the movie "In Time"

With Cispr and other technologies, immortality is solvable... maybe not reverse aging, but stopping aging could be possible say inject with virus that alters dna to stop losing telemores etc...

Jellyfish for example already live forever
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Absolutely. South East Asia was successful is because of their ethnic Chinese. They were so successful, it caused the locals to discriminate them as in Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines and Thailand.

not in Thailand, they have quite good relationship, also both Thais and Chinese have the same religion Buddhist, which help greatly
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Watch the movie "In Time"

With Cispr and other technologies, immortality is solvable... maybe not reverse aging, but stopping aging could be possible say inject with virus that alters dna to stop losing telemores etc...

Jellyfish for example already live forever

Living too long (>100 yrs) and let alone mortality is not a good idea .... we need new young people with fresh ideas and energy
 

gadgetcool5

Senior Member
Registered Member
It will be very challenging to successfully manage a sustained overpopulation problem long term. The bottleneck is the sources and production of energy to maintain steady economic growth to support ever growing population. As a specie, a human population of about 10 billions mark would be really pushing the earth's capacity. Looking for economic growth in that situation would be very risky and unstable proposition for any sensible reasonable leader, unless we have a massive revolution in energy production and efficient consumption.
There is enough wind power on earth to support current human needs 7x over. That is not even including solar. R&D and innovation will make it so that people can live better with fewer resources, as well. Chinese are not going to live as wastefully as Americans, where each family has three cars and two huge houses. Human population growth is slowing and worrying about overpopulation is a 20th century problem. China's births are literally the lowest since 1952. It shouldn't be absurd to say it should increase. There is not going to be uncontrolled growth in the population.

East Asia currently has the lowest population growth rates/fastest shrinking population in the world, and even Southeast Asia has low birthrates in many countries, such as Thailand and Malaysia. I don't really get the paranoia here about too many Chinese people or too many people in Asia. It sounds like something a white supremacist would say. The reality is China has done a lot more for the global environment than the West.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
Look, the senior "problem" is a problem only if China lets it be a problem. I don't recall seeing the article in the Chinese constitution that stated that senior citizens must be supported by the state as its highest priority at whatever cost. China will look after its old people as best it can, but it's an inescapable fact that a lot of them will just die poor. Tough, but those are the breaks. China is a developing country - why should we expect elderly standard of care to match that of developed countries?

The core of the demographic "problem" that China faces is an elderly bulge as a result of a previous youth bulge when the TFR fell from 6 to below 2 (and this was before the one child policy). The only solution is for this bulge to pass.

And there's another factor besides automation that people never consider - the possibility that aging itself could be comprehensively brought under medical control. That there could be medical procedures in the distant future (beyond 2050) that would keep people biologically young indefinitely. How does birth rate factor into a world where the death rate is near zero because no one is dying of old age anymore? This seems like science fiction now, but it's a relevant consideration on the timescales we're talking about (decades).

Maybe biological immortality will come to pass. Many people think it will, but we can’t rely on hopes and dreams.

China should not hope to become like Europe or it’s Anglo offshoots in America and Oceania. Sure, looking back and seeing the great things they did in the 50s and 60s, even up to the 90s in some areas (personal computing) is awe-inspiring, but they’ve really been declining since their relative overall technological and economic stagnation began happening in the 1970s. Certain industries and sectors have had spurts of innovation, but overall, they’ve been going in reverse relative to China since ‘78.

Instead of copying Western thought mindlessly like some cognitively insecure Asians, we should look to the objective truth. The objective truth is, Europeans and their offshoots in America and Oceania have had to mass import hundreds of millions of people of a different culture and mindset in the last 60-70 years because of their fertility policies. Korea and Japan are in the same shit for following the same decadent and ignorant Western social policies, but the latter refuses any immigration so instead it dies a slow death of consistent relative decline to pretty much every country on Earth, for every year, since 1990. Japan didn’t lose a decade. It lost its existence, unless it can somehow reverse its policies and get its people to make babies again. Seems hopeless but who knows.

On the other hand Korea has resorted to importing so many Southeast Asians that some demographers are predicting S. Korea will become minority ethnic Korean before the United Kingdom becomes minority British.

So basically, if you follow Western dogma, the consequences are replacing yourself with a people different from your own, who will probably end up disliking you and fomenting constant and never-ending dissent, OR even better going the Japan route of degradation, tentacle porn, mass suicide, insecurity and meekness, and worst of all, barren wombs.

One thing Mao definitely got right was that population friggin matters. We can thank him for this massive population boom which has resulted in 1.4 billion 105-IQ Chinese. I wouldn’t give that up. America will continue growing and China should maintain the >4 to 1 population disparity ratio with them.

Asians always settle for just winning. It’s like an insecurity. Oh we finally won against the Whites, it’s so shocking, we should just settle for that. Screw that. Press the advantage. If we could terraform Mars and the Moon, do it. Put a hundred billion Chinese there. That’s how the Whites have thought, never-ending mega projects of daring and adventurous thought. Never resting on their laurels. If there’s one thing I’ll admire them for once they are nigh-extinct by the end of the century it’s that.

To conclude, China’s population disparity with the West is a good thing. The excuse that population sizes’ affect national development has never been proven. It’s just a saying reinforced by Western liberal environmentalists wishful thinking.

I don’t say China should go and try to have 10 kids per woman, especially not right now. But those advocating for population decline are enemies of China. China should at the very LEAST maintain its population with a TFR of 2.1.

PS: The belief that India can’t develop because of its population size is ridiculous and wrong. Then how does China? Magic? India’s innate talent pool is just significantly lower, and the brain drain to America doesn’t help.
 

zgx09t

Junior Member
Registered Member
There is enough wind power on earth to support current human needs 7x over. That is not even including solar. R&D and innovation will make it so that people can live better with fewer resources, as well. Chinese are not going to live as wastefully as Americans, where each family has three cars and two huge houses. Human population growth is slowing and worrying about overpopulation is a 20th century problem. China's births are literally the lowest since 1952. It shouldn't be absurd to say it should increase. There is not going to be uncontrolled growth in the population.

East Asia currently has the lowest population growth rates/fastest shrinking population in the world, and even Southeast Asia has low birthrates in many countries, such as Thailand and Malaysia. I don't really get the paranoia here about too many Chinese people or too many people in Asia. It sounds like something a white supremacist would say. The reality is China has done a lot more for the global environment than the West.

Regarding China's energy management state of affairs, where it is now, where it's going to be, can be found in the following link.
It's not an overly long read, so you could be able to go through it and have a handle on the ground situations. You can sense the long term thinking at the grand design level to practical implementations. That's the best of what can be done at human level at the moment. You can make out an emerging outline of gradual shift to where the most benefits would be for the whole society, given the investments, continuation of livelihood and sustaining current economic activities without too much sudden disruptions and unnecessary costs, etc. You can say pie in the sky 7x wind power all you want, but real life is all about balancing and gradual change by trail and error. Not saying more babies are not the legitimate solution, but here are also some other angles that you may need to consider.

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The last decades we have had many advancements in electric related technologies including the white LED, lithium batteries, superconductors, etc. I think focusing too much on oil usage and lack of oil as a problem in agriculture, as if it would limit population growth, is making something to be a big problem when it actually isn't insurmountable.

Solar and wind energy alone could power a population several times over what we have right now with the correct energy transmission, storage, and load balancing put in place. Nuclear fission power alone could power human civilization for at least a couple of centuries, same deal for coal, by that time we are bound to have come up with something else. The problem with chemical fertilizer being made from "oil" well also overrated. The problem with chemical fertilizer production is you need some hydrogen source to make ammonia (NH4) and the cheapest way to get it used to be from oil. Today you typically do it from natural gas (CH4) which is both cheaper as a process and uses a more plentiful feedstock. You could also use high temperature electrolysis to get it from other processes. You could even use solar thermal to crack water and you could store either the hydrogen or the fertilizer i.e. only do it in the daytime. It is not as big of a deal as some people make it to be. With the switch to electric transportation in urban centers and most people living in or around cities the amount of oil required to conduct human transportation activities will decrease and it can be used elsewhere. If you have large urban centers then practices like vertical farming in enclosed factory farms also becomes an option. It is already being used in Japan and elsewhere to grow vegetables in the middle of urban areas.

I also don't doubt they will get driverless cars working and that will put a huge amount of people out of their jobs in the trucking industry alone.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I don't. You talk about social progress and political progress and then environmental consciousness. These topics by itself are already too broad. But you tried to combine all of these topics to depict a picture. I just want to point out some of what you said that I disagree with.

Drinking martinis is a progress for someone but might not be a progress for the others. How do we define what is a progress or what isn't a progress.

They do have a choice that is why they choose to flee. Taiwan has one of the highest net migration in all developed economies. That says a lot of quality of live in Taiwan. Taiwan has fallen behind Singapore, South Korea, and Hong Kong in every metric. That means for the last few decades, Taiwan is a failure.

Many Hong Kongers hire domestic helpers even though their apartment is less than 400 sq feet. It is a good thing that people can choose to pursue their interests even if it lowered their quality of living.

Well I wouldn't defend drinking alcohol as some sort of pinnacle of human sophistication regardless of which alcohol it is.
I wouldn't defend having people as domestic helpers as a pinnacle of human wealth either. That, to me, only describes that you are in a deeply unequal society for people to be able to afford helpers for small things like that. Labor isn't being valued properly I think.
In the US and Brazil there is also a culture in some places of hiring helpers and those helpers typically come from highly impoverished backgrounds. The US and Brazil are some of the most unequal societies in the so called Western economies.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well I wouldn't defend drinking alcohol as some sort of pinnacle of human sophistication regardless of which alcohol it is.
I wouldn't defend having people as domestic helpers as a pinnacle of human wealth either. That, to me, only describes that you are in a deeply unequal society for people to be able to afford helpers for small things like that. Labor isn't being valued properly I think.
In the US and Brazil there is also a culture in some places of hiring helpers and those helpers typically come from highly impoverished backgrounds. The US and Brazil are some of the most unequal societies in the so called Western economies.
Hi gelgoog,

Guilty as charge(I'm not that rich), I'm one of those that hire domestic helpers, on my defense, their employment help feed and provided financial assistance to their families in the provinces. And if you look at which countries most afflicted of these unequal societies you may find Religion(more people means more followers and therefore more power) had played a major part. ex: Philippine(a feudal society) it's a catholic country which is against population and family control, how can a family of 12 people (yes, most family in the provinces had 10 children to help with farming) feed itself on a plot of 12 hectares of land? It can't that's how surplus labor is so cheap in my country that we had to export most of them as OFW. So what is the rights of the catholic church to intervene pertaining to the State rights to govern? They are not answerable to our well being and hardship and can't be voted out.

I for one advocate a strong Gov't, the western media may call Duterte a dictator, but being strong leader, he is able to put all these interest group in their proper places. That is why he admire Putin, Xi and the CCP, yes the CCP, he is indoctrinated early on in his youth the need for a socialist movement in my country, to established a socialist society instead of a feudal one we had today.
 
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