Chinese cruise and anti-ship missiles

Pointblank said:

And it is not like a B-2 will strike alone at one target; there will be air activity in other sectors, plus cruise missiles flying at the same time. So, you might have to deal with a gaggle of Tomahawk's heading towards a power generation station, before you can deal with the B-2.

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Nope. That's not how defence works. Just as how multiple targets are engaged at the sametime in aerial battles now days, when the cruise missiles and the B2 are detected simultaneously, both will be engaged simultaneously. It is absurd to assume that the crew of an air defence system will sit around doing nothing until some other crew has dealt with another target.

Pointblank said:

Nope, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, if you detect a civilian engaged in unlawful combat, you must treat the person so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial,"

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Nope. You are misquoting the Geneva Convention. In fact, you went beyond that by trying to sneak in your own clause to the Geneva Convention to decieve people reading this thread. Your "if you detect a civilian engage in unlawful combat, you must..." requirement simply does not exist in the actual convention. In fact, no where in Article 5 is there any mentioning of "civilian" at all.

Pointblank said:

...and until you determine that they are unlawful combatants, they are to be treated as a POW. Under most accepted legal systems, the onus is placed on the accuser to prove his claims, not the defendant to prove they are not guilty.

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Nope. Again, you are trying to sneak in your own little setence into the Geneva Convention to deceive people as to what the actual convention says. There is simply no requirement that one has to ensure individuals are unlawful combatans before engagement.

In fact, participants in the scenario which you have envisioned are stripped of protection by the Forth Geneva Convention:

Geneva Convention (IV) said:

Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

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China Space News reported on 10th August 2010 that one importan weapon system is trialed right now by the Chinese company well-known for its DF 21 medium range strategic missile family.



许达哲在调研试验队创先争优活动时强调
为国家提供先进武器装备就是最好的创先争优


本报讯　(特约记者　龚界文)8月5日～6日，中国航天科工集团公司总经理、党组书记、创先争优活动领导小组组长许达哲深入四院某重点型号试验现场，调研外场试验队临时党组织创先争优活动开展情况，并参加了试验队一分队党支部主题活动。他强调，为国家提供先进的国防武器装备，就是最好的创先争优；型号试验队开展创先争优活动，最根本的是让创先争优成为确保完成型号任务的动力和保证。
许达哲仔细察看了试验队的创先争优宣传专栏。当看到试验队将“为确保试验任务圆满成功作贡献”作为创先争优活动主题，把创先争优活动与履行岗位职责、推进试验任务及各阶段重点工作紧密结合起来时，许达哲对此表示充分肯定。当了解到试验队临时党支部结合试验任务发出《倡议书》，层层签订《承诺书》，要求各党支部及全体试验队员坚定信念、争当践行使命的模范，严控质量、争做务实求真的典范，严格管理、争当遵章守纪的楷模，重视安全、争做严格自律的榜样，保障有力、争当大力协同的表率时，许达哲频频点头，表示赞赏。
随后，许达哲参加了试验队一分队党支部的创先争优主题活动。与会党员、积极分子踊跃发言，畅谈对试验队、分队及立足本职岗位开展创先争优活动的认识与体会，活动现场十分活跃。在参与了热烈讨论交流后，许达哲指出，创先争优活动要紧贴企业发展，融入型号试验工作，与试验任务紧密结合起来，与日常工作紧密结合起来，不能与型号“两总”系统的日常工作要求相分离，不能搞成“两张皮”。广大党员及试验队员要立足岗位开展创先争优。
许达哲强调指出：第一，试验队开展创先争优活动，最根本的一点，就是要让创先争优活动成为确保完成型号任务的动力和保证。要切实做到“目标看得见、工作能落实、党员好参加”。具体到试验队，目标看得见，就是要圆满完成试验任务，实现“一箭中的”；工作能落实，就是各项重点工作落实到哪些方面，每位同志参加哪些项目，都要清清楚楚；党员好参加，就是每一位试验队员要立足本职岗位，尽职尽责开展工作，用心做好每一项工作。
第二，试验队临时党支部的工作，就是要使全体队员处于最佳工作状态。创先争优，就是要把基层党组织的战斗堡垒作用充分发挥出来，把党员队伍、干部职工队伍的活力激发出来，目的就是要促发展，促试验任务完成。试验队开展争当优秀党支部、争做优秀试验队员的活动很好，要通过创先争优，使全体队员处于最佳工作状态，把任务完成好。
第三，党员要立足本职岗位开展创先争优，带动全体试验队员创先争优。创先争优，就是要立足本岗位做工作，把广大科研人员的积极性调动起来，把党和国家赋予的任务完成好，形成“科技强军我争先、航天报国我奉献”的浓厚氛围。先进性是中国共产党最重要的特点，优秀是共产党员的无限追求。我们要在重大试验任务中，把党员都锤炼成骨干，把骨干都培养成党员。
许达哲指出，试验队推进创先争优活动，关键要紧紧围绕型号科研生产任务开展工作，调动广大科研人员在具体工作中做到“四个下工夫”，即在吃透技术上下工夫、在严控状态上下工夫、在质量把关上下工夫、在精心操作上下工夫。他要求，必须始终坚持任务不清不操作、状态不清不操作、质量不清不操作、要求不清不操作。
许达哲希望每一位共产党员准确理解创先争优的内涵，把本职工作做得更好、更出色，在圆满完成试验任务的过程中，成为工作表现最好、技术水平最高、科研成果最多的人。他希望在创先争优活动中，能够看到试验队圆满完成任务，看到试验工作中涌现出大量创先争优标兵，涌现出一批先进党支部、优秀共产党员。
调研期间，许达哲听取了试验队领导关于试验工作的详细汇报。他细致询问了试验任务的进展情况，试验过程中存在的困难、问题及解决途径，并对下一步试验工作的开展提出了明确要求，给予了具体指导。他指出，为国家提供先进的国防武器装备，就是最好的创先争优。作为国防军工企业，必须坚持“国家利益高于一切”的核心价值理念，秉承科技强军、航天报国的神圣使命，扎实履行好首要之责。他希望试验队及全体队员进一步增强责任感和使命感，精心组织，精心实施，加强管理，大力协同，严格控制技术，严格把握状态，严把产品质量关，不留任何隐患，不留任何遗憾，确保圆满完成试验任务。
集团公司副总经理、党组成员李跃以及总部和四院有关领导陪同参加了调研。

More stuff on YJ-62. This talks about a East Sea Fleet shored based missile regiment with 10+ YJ-62 trucks doing training. Talks about hitting targets after 10+ minutes.

2010年8月6日夜，东海舰队机动岸舰导弹团数十辆鹰击-62型导弹战车风驰电掣，向东海海岸,[北至连云港,东至福建东山]之间的某预设阵地开进。这支新中国成立60周年阅兵时首次亮相的海军新型岸舰导弹部队，正在举行一次实战背景下的发射演练。



夜黑如墨，兵车辚辚。“蓝方即将空袭，迅速改变战车行进路线，分群多路行军向预备阵地开进！”中军帐一声令下，车队即刻兵分三路，分别沿国道、省道和高速公路向目标阵地机动。指挥员张国宝解释说：将“一字长蛇阵”化为多路径进发，任何一条路径均可形成有效攻击。



“蓝方舰艇编队正向我海域逼近，命你部迅速进入阵地。”黎明时分，随着一阵刺耳的警报声，蓝方驱护舰编队闯入红方雷达搜索范围。记者登上指挥车，综合控制台前，只见号手李炎均飞快地操作着各种仪器设备，电子海图和各类目标参数不停地变换闪烁。数分钟后，他已完成航路规划，赋予导弹攻击参数。随着鼠标轻点，转向点、航速等各种数据源源植入导弹芯片。



“导弹发射！”“轰！”大地颤抖，数枚导弹如利剑出鞘，掠过海平面，按照各自预定的飞行路线呼啸着直扑目标。记者在电子海图上看到，数条显示导弹飞行轨迹的坐标光点不断向大洋深处的目标移动，它们从四面八方而来，有的超低空绕过岛礁，有的在空中不断转换变向。10多分钟后，指挥车接到上级指挥所通报：“你部导弹同时临空，饱和攻击有效，‘敌’舰丧失战斗力。”

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Last sentence described saturation attacks with missiles flying at different directions, changing course, flying at different heights, and all arrived at the target at the same time about 10 minutes after launch.

That mean YJ-62 can be programmed to vary course and heights. The targets were probably at 150 Km distance.

From Zhuhai airshow, the description for the 5 anti-ship missiles that they displayed. Ranging from the rather short ranged C-701 all the way to the long ranged C-602.

There is a lot of sceptism how China can find the Aircraft carrier in vast ocean . The recent Zhuhai air show provide a glimpse how they do it . Though many forumer have speculated using over the horizont radar in combination with UAV ,this is the first tangible proof.


China Unveils Sea Defense System to Counter Aircraft CarrierPublication: China Brief Volume: 10 Issue: 23November 19, 2010 12:21 PM Age: 3 hrsCategory: China Brief, In a Fortnight, Home Page, Military/Security, China and the Asia-Pacific
By: Russell Hsiao

CASIC's "Coastal Defense System"
The modernization of China’s aerospace capabilities was prominently on display at the Eighth China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition (2010 Zhuhai Air Show). The biannual air show, which is taking place from November 16-21 in the southeastern province of Guangdong, involves more than 600 domestic and foreign aerospace defense manufacturers and exhibitors. Apart from the state-of-the-art weapon systems displayed at the show, the roll out by Chinese-defense manufacturers in this year’s expo stood apart from previous years in significant ways.

While much have been reported about the capabilities of China’s new weapon systems (e.g. unmanned technologies, missiles, etc.), much less have been said about how Chinese military planners intend to deploy these systems on the battlefield. Taking into account the Chinese proclivity to “keep a low profile,” especially when it comes to military planning, it has come as a surprise to outside observers that state-owned China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation (CASIC)—one of the country’s largest defense manufacturers—displayed a detailed diagram in the main hall of the international air show depicting, in not-so-subtle terms, an integrated “Coastal Defense System” of Chinese ground, naval, air and space assets coordinating an attack on an un-flagged aircraft carrier group approaching a small island off the coast of China (Global Times, November 16; Wen Wei Po [Hong Kong], November 17). Additionally, it was reported by Defense News that in one promotional video, a CASIC-made unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) locates an aircraft carrier and relays the information for a follow-on attack by Chinese anti-ship missiles (Defense News, November 16).

It is no surprise that Chinese defense planners are concerned about the presence of aircraft carriers in the Western Pacific, yet the CASIC exhibit is the first time that it publicly showed ‘how’ Chinese forces may counter the advances of an aircraft carrier group. The multiple platforms on display provides a glimpse into Chinese defense thinking on how the various capabilities offered by some of its advanced weapon systems may be integrated and deployed in operations to counter an aircraft carrier.

According to the CASIC diagram, China can monitor the carrier’s movements with submarines and UAVs, which will then relay information to a coastal command center. Chinese forces can then attack the carrier group with fighter jets and cruise and ballistic missiles. As part of China’s far sea defense system, three different missiles would be deployed simultaneously to attack the approaching carrier. Noticeably absent in the display was the DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missiles (Global Times, November 16; Wen Wei Po [Hong Kong], November 17).

The missiles on display were the C-602, C-705 and C- 802A, which are all domestically made by the Third Academy under CASIC, and together attack the carrier from the ground, air and water. This so-called “anti-aircraft carrier system,” which has become the focus of the Chinese-media, has prompted the media to dub the missiles the “the three anti-aircraft carrier musketeers.” The attack is assisted by space-based satellites and high altitude UAV, which are used to assess and relay battlefield communications (Global Times, November 16; Wen Wei Po, November 17).

C-602 (YJ-62) is a sub-sonic and long range anti-ship cruise missile (ASCM) for use by surface ships. The mid-course guidance system of the C-602 is a combination of Inertial Navigation System (INS) and Beidou Positioning System. The YJ-62 also has terminal guidance system and active radar seeker at the terminal phase of flight (approx 40 km) that raises its hit rate (China Defense Mash Up, October 11, 2008).

C-705 is an air-launched anti-ship missile, which is the latest variant of the C-701 series, featuring a maximum range of 75 km without the rocket-booster, or 170 km when fitted with a rocket–booster. The mid-course guidance system is based on a combination of GPS and INS. The missile carries a 110 kg warhead and flies at an attitude of 12.15 m above the sea level.

C-802A (YJ-82) is an improved variant of YJ-82 subsonic missile with terminal guidance radar seeker. The mid-course guidance system is based on the INS. The missile has a 165 kg armor-piercing warhead. The missile's flight altitude varies from 20-30 m cruise to 7 m at the terminal stage with range extended to 180 km. C-802A missile length 6.8 m, diameter 360 mm, weight 682 kg, can carry 165 kg of warhead weight.

While these weapon systems alone do not represent major advances in China’s military capabilities—many of these systems actually made its debut in previous shows—the diagram presents a conceptual model that presents integrated weapon platforms executing an attack, which demands a high degree of interoperability and integrated war-fighting planning. This model appears consistent with trends in some Chinese military exercises in the East and South China Sea.

As China continues to modernize its aerospace capabilities, it will increasingly be able to integrate existing weapon platforms and alter the calculus of forces required for sea control. While the CASIC diagram is only a model, it does a represent a trend in Chinese defense thinking toward greater interoperability and a layered defense strategy for near-and fear-sea defense. The prominent role of UAVs at the air show also suggests that its battlefield applications are becoming more defined in Chinese defense planning. As China strengthens its C4I (Command, Control, Communications, Computing and Intelligence) structure and integrates its other operating weapon systems, it could greatly enhance the Chinese military's capability to execute near-and far-sea defense missions and an effective anti-access/area denial strategy.

I find it hard that PLA would divulge their anti-aircraft carrier strategy in an air show. That strategy, if it exists, must be one of PLA´s closest guarded secrets.

kroko said:

I find it hard that PLA would divulge their anti-aircraft carrier strategy in an air show. That strategy, if it exists, must be one of PLA´s closest guarded secrets.

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The strategy obviously exists -- within the PLA and in the companies which supply it.

That video of the WJ-600 is a proposal of how the product could integratein an A2AD scenario with other well known systems, and isn't necessarily the current PLA weapons which will be in use in a real battle.
It's just showing how it could work in the PLA's growing C4I network -- nothing too closely guarded about it.

Bltizo said:

The strategy obviously exists -- within the PLA and in the companies which supply it.

That video of the WJ-600 is a proposal of how the product could integratein an A2AD scenario with other well known systems, and isn't necessarily the current PLA weapons which will be in use in a real battle.
It's just showing how it could work in the PLA's growing C4I network -- nothing too closely guarded about it.

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Right, the keyword here is integration. meaning integrating land,naval,air and space asset combined with C4I into seamless system to track the aircraft carrier. There is nothing secret about it. All we see sofar are the components. We know China has over the horizon radar, Yaogan and Beidou series satellite and now we see the long range UAV and Y8W series of Maritime patrol plane. Off course they are not going to divulge the secret of C4I systems. Each year will bring new component to perfect the systems

The PLA-N is becoming more aggressive with spats in the South China Sea and the East China Sea in 2010. It intends to claim all these waters for "historical reasons" and as its EEZ. The only obstacle it faces is the USN Carrier Strike Groups. The Chinese is experimenting with cruise missiles (both land base and on warships) to counter the US interference. If there is no check and balance, the PLA-N will dominate the South China and adjacent Seas possibly within 10 years. Preparations have been made to dominate the Indian Ocean with the use of the "String of Pearls" (i.e. China has built "friendly" ports at Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar etc). It has eyes on the Second Chain (from Japan to Guam) to ensure its warships & submarines can exit into the Western Pacific. China regulates its power from "hard" to "soft" according to the situation. It uses "Charm Offensive" to hide its real intentions. Unless the US Navy and the other Navies (Japan, South Korea, India, Australia and ASEAN) cooperates and balance the Chinese Maritime ambitions, Mao's wish for "THE EAST IS RED" could become a reality.