Chinese cruise and anti-ship missiles

Pointblank

Senior Member
Having decent radar coverage is completely different from having 'no holes' in air defense.

In addition, the detection range against stealth targets like the B2 will be a fraction what it is against conventional aircraft. If you appreciated how vast China is and how long its boarders are, you would realise that it is cost prohibitive to guard it all. Even more so against stealth targets.

China cannot afford nor need to build some impregnable SAM network that can stop B2s from getting into China undetected. China can and do however, have sufficient assets in place to make sure there would be a very high probability that an B2s that try to attack key strategic targets in China with free-fall bombs and unsupported would be detected and destroyed.

And it is not like a B-2 will strike alone at one target; there will be air activity in other sectors, plus cruise missiles flying at the same time. So, you might have to deal with a gaggle of Tomahawk's heading towards a power generation station, before you can deal with the B-2.

During a war, trawlers that attempts to cut cables wouldn't be civilians; these would be military trawlers. The burden of proof would lie on them if they are caught performing military activities in a warzone. And who say these trawlers have to be sunk by military vessels? If fishing trawlers can complete military operations by two clicks of a mouse like in a strategy game, then any ship attempting to cut China's submarine cables can also be sunk by fishing trawlers from China's side. Get real!

Nope, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, if you detect a civilian engaged in unlawful combat, you must treat the person so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial," and until you determine that they are unlawful combatants, they are to be treated as a POW. Under most accepted legal systems, the onus is placed on the accuser to prove his claims, not the defendant to prove they are not guilty.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
Nope, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, if you detect a civilian engaged in unlawful combat, you must treat the person so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial," and until you determine that they are unlawful combatants, they are to be treated as a POW. Under most accepted legal systems, the onus is placed on the accuser to prove his claims, not the defendant to prove they are not guilty.

Seriously, you're living under an absurd DELUSION. If the USN caught a Chinese trawler trying to cut SOSUS cables during wartime, that trawler would get blown into a thousand pieces immediately and without warning, much less receive some kind of idiotic "fair and regular trial". And vice versa.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
And it is not like a B-2 will strike alone at one target; there will be air activity in other sectors, plus cruise missiles flying at the same time. So, you might have to deal with a gaggle of Tomahawk's heading towards a power generation station, before you can deal with the B-2.

And that is relevant how exactly? Just as a warship's crew is trained to handle multiaxis attack, so too are land based air defense operators and systems.

If there is a gaggle of tomahawks coming from one direction, appropriate assets would be dispatched to intercept and deal with them. That will not detract much from the PLA's ability to intercept suspected stealth contacts coming in from another direction.

Nope, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, if you detect a civilian engaged in unlawful combat, you must treat the person so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial," and until you determine that they are unlawful combatants, they are to be treated as a POW. Under most accepted legal systems, the onus is placed on the accuser to prove his claims, not the defendant to prove they are not guilty.

That is simply an absurd intepretation to the point where it ignores all common sense and real world precedents.

Do you think coalition forces in iraq and afghanistan deal with 'unlawful combatants' by treating them like misbehaving children? If sentried catch some 'indigens' trying to cut a hole in their perimetre fence just as the taliban starts launch an attack, do you think they are going to get out to try and give them the chance to have a fair trail or just blast them and start getting ready to deal with the taliban?

And that's not even taking into account how America's own actions with predator drones and hellfire missiles have already established that it is 'fair practice' to deal with 'unlawful combatants' with a missile instead of a court. If anything, the targeted killings with drones got far beyond sinking ships trying to cut cables since in the later case there is at least a direct self defense argument while the drone killings cannot be directly linked to any specific attack and is just a general counter to a percieved threat.

And just fyi, the convetion you are quoting refers to the treatment of captured 'unlawful combatants', and is meant to say its not on to line them up and shoot them in the back of the head after you had captured them. This is to give them comparable rights to captured enemy soldiers. To suggest anyone is barred from using lethal force against 'unlawful combatants' flies in the face of reality and plain common sense.
 

cloyce

Junior Member
And it is not like a B-2 will strike alone at one target; there will be air activity in other sectors, plus cruise missiles flying at the same time. So, you might have to deal with a gaggle of Tomahawk's heading towards a power generation station, before you can deal with the B-2.

Tomahawk? I think we have already talked about GPS jamming.
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Pointblank, it almost seems like your whole argument about the trawling stuff boils down to some form of misreading of some international conventions here.

No matter what else we could dig up here, the provisions of UNCLOS are clear. Though I don't agree with ZTZ99's very violent solution, he does have a valid point.

UNCLOS does NOT give the right of FREE passage in a country's territorial waters. It gives the right for INNOCENT passage. Meaning passage is only allowed as long as the ship does not in any way threaten the host country or its policies. If there is any reason to doubt the -innocent- nature of a ship (or, in your example, a fleet of ships), then the host country can deny the ship(s) entry into its waters. If the offending ships do not respond, the host country can board the ships, ram them, shoot warning shots or do anything in their power to stop the ships. In a tense situation, non-innocent ships would be the ones doing anything else than steaming at full speed to get out of territorial waters as soon as possible.

Now, what is more is that inside a country's EEZ (exclusive economic zone), the host country controls ALL economic activity. This includes trawling. Any trawlers entering the zone can be turned around by the coast guard (or, read above). That is, unless they have a logical reason to be there outside trawling. In your example, the trawlers are trawling. Thus conducting economic activity. Which would be unlawful.

If we are talking about a SOSUS-system outside China's EEZ, we're surely entering the waters of South Korea or Japan, which would most likely be impossible to do, as these countries would surely know if the Chinese were deploying their system there, and could thus simply disable the system as the Chinese are laying it, as they are at full right to dispose of anything inside their waters.

PS: When talking about the Geneva convention etc. I think you guys forget one thing. The UN Charter is lex superior, meaning if in dispute, it trumps all other treaties. The UN Charter makes it clear that all countries are allowed to defend themselves with arms. Provision no. 2 is to have the response be proportionate to the threat. If a fleet of trawlers is damaging your submarine defence, then they are causing major and critical damage to China's defence ability, thus allowing a similarly urgent and effective military response. The rights of a few fishermen WILL be trumped by a major power's ability to defend itself.
 
Last edited:

Red Moon

Junior Member
Nope, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, if you detect a civilian engaged in unlawful combat, you must treat the person so that he must be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial," and until you determine that they are unlawful combatants, they are to be treated as a POW. Under most accepted legal systems, the onus is placed on the accuser to prove his claims, not the defendant to prove they are not guilty.

Will somebody please inform Pointblank about Guantanamo. Or are we supposed to pretend that never existed?
 

Maggern

Junior Member
Will somebody please inform Pointblank about Guantanamo. Or are we supposed to pretend that never existed?

I'd say Guantanamo and the Geneva convention both are irrelevant in this scenario. As mentioned earlier, that convention talks about POWs, it does not moderate militar-to-civilian interaction in peacetime nor wartime. If you as a civilian wilfully enters a warzone (that is, a zone where the enemy country is sure to operate or has stated so) and engages in activity it is logical to assume the enemy force might interpret as hostile, you really are there at your own risk. In a tense war you would probably want to shoot first and ask questions later if there is a credible threat.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
Pointblank, it almost seems like your whole argument about the trawling stuff boils down to some form of misreading of some international conventions here.

No matter what else we could dig up here, the provisions of UNCLOS are clear. Though I don't agree with ZTZ99's very violent solution, he does have a valid point.
Don't try to play the pacifist here. We are talking about wartime, where essentially anything goes. The US is showing the whole world every single day in Iraq and Afghanistan what passes for acceptable during wartime, including killing people they merely suspect of being militants:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
There are many many other such videos on Youtube.

In a major or even total war scenario with China, you think the US is going to take consideration of an enemy trawler crew's supposed right to a fair trial in mind if it catches them trying to cut SOSUS cables? Not at all. The trawler will be instantly destroyed. If that's a very violent solution for you, you should consider posting at some non-military website.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Just to add as a further expansion of how foolish trying to exploit civilians in this way is that you may give the other side a blank cheque to attack ALL your, or allied civilian traffic within their EEZ or area of operation. They will just say, 'oh, we are terribly sorry, but we honestly thought those innocent civies we sank were just more unlawful combatants you recruited. Just look at how the Israelis are getting away with what many consider to be war crimes because they can cast doubt over their intention by citing past Hama practice of using fake ambulances to defend attacks on real ambulances, just as an example.

If the US was shown to be employing civilian shipping in military activity, then China will be well within its rights to declare all of its EEZ as off limits to all civilian traffic, or restrict civilan traffic to strict corridoors. That will make US surface operations vastly more difficult, as the PLA can declear any shipping outsde of the define coridoors that don't belong to them as hostile and engage them without even having to check who they are. Send a couple of missiles at each and every return long range OTH radar throws up. If the targets are sunk, it reinforces the message that you need to get within the coridoors if you are an innocent civilian. If the target isn't sunk, its hostile military and theu can plan coordinated large scale saturation attacks on those contacts, after their identity has been check using space assets to be sure.

Obviously thats a very basic example of what the PLAN can do. The point is that to try being 'clever' by exploiting civilians is extremely likely to backfire.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
this is about YJ-62, just talking about a routine live firing practice. Two shots were fired and both hit the target. This was stationed for the SSF. Part of China's efforts to establish mobile shored based AShM units
7月底,南海舰队某机动岸导团正在某合同对海攻击演练中实射导弹。该团在全程强磁干扰条件下,准时准点成功实射两枚导弹,并取得全部直接命中目标的好成绩,标志着国产某新型机动岸舰导弹在复杂电磁环境下突防成功,与兄弟部队达成了合同攻击效果。

中国军事图片中心 沈华月 摄
 
Top