Chinese Aviation Industry

weig2000

Captain
Can you elaborate on why do you think so? Argument and reasoning are more valued than assertion.

You can never be sure of what will happen. CR-929 is like A300 being the first project of Airbus in the 1970s. One might have said the same thing about Airbus back then.

Besides, CR-929 is going to be developed by the Sino-Russo JV which was established in Shanghai just months ago. Isn't that JV the Sino-Russo Airbus in its early days?

None of the member countries participating in the Airbus project would have a viable commercial aircraft industry on their own, both from the market and industrial base standpoint. It therefore makes a lot of sense for them to pool their resources to form a permanent consortium as Airbus. China, on the other hand, has the ambition, resources, market, and ultimately the industrial base to develop and sustain a dynamic and robust commercial aircraft industry. It's off to a good start.

The cooperation and JV's with Russia will be selective, depending on the merits of each project/product. The Chinese and Russian are not merging their commercial aircraft industries. Not now, not ever. That would be the Airbus model.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Registered Member
The highlighted texts are true and I have no doubt about it. However it does not necessarily get in the way for a cooperation in a Airbus like JV between China and Russia. Therefor I questioned the doubt that CR-929 will be the only product of this cooperation. Perhaps, the Sino-Russo JV will develop into a different form (inside) like BAE's involvement in Anglo-American military complex, F-35 style, but a JV is a JV.

IMO, "airbus style joint venture" means the complete merging of their commercial aircraft industries.

BAE's involvement in the F-35 is also a joint venture but it's on a completely different scale to something like airbus.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
None of the member countries participating in the Airbus project would have a viable commercial aircraft industry on their own, both from the market and industrial base standpoint.
I believe you are forgetting Dassault Aviation which is a french company developing military and corporate jets.
There are also companies like Panavia Aircraft GmbH and, Leonardo-Finmeccanica which also develops/manages various military planes.
 

Blitzo

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I believe you are forgetting Dassault Aviation which is a french company developing military and corporate jets.
There are also companies like Panavia Aircraft GmbH and, Leonardo-Finmeccanica which also develops/manages various military planes.

Whether any of those companies could be described as having a "viable" commercial aircraft department in their company would be a matter of some contention, I think...
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
I believe you are forgetting Dassault Aviation which is a french company developing military and corporate jets.
There are also companies like Panavia Aircraft GmbH and, Leonardo-Finmeccanica which also develops/manages various military planes.

Yes the France did that and by technical point of view, Dassault Rafale is a failure, it so far has less than 200 produced total, and judge by the price it just sold to India, its on par with the price of F-35. Only Indians are "smart" enough to be spending 5th gen money on a 4th gen soon to be obsolete aircraft.

In the end, both Dassault and Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH failed, because it didn't even bother to come up with a 5th gen replacement!!! I mean heck, even Russia got some money to produce the Su-57.

The real race for future of combat jet is solely between US and China and no one else will ever come close.
 

SamuraiBlue

Captain
Yes the France did that and by technical point of view, Dassault Rafale is a failure, it so far has less than 200 produced total, and judge by the price it just sold to India, its on par with the price of F-35. Only Indians are "smart" enough to be spending 5th gen money on a 4th gen soon to be obsolete aircraft.

In the end, both Dassault and Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH failed, because it didn't even bother to come up with a 5th gen replacement!!! I mean heck, even Russia got some money to produce the Su-57.

The real race for future of combat jet is solely between US and China and no one else will ever come close.
That is not the point, there are still aviation manufacturers beside Airbus in those participating nations.
As for failure or success, most nations really doesn't care if their fighters planes makes profit look at F-22, do you think Lockheed Martin is raking up big bucks?
Same with most war planes.
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
That is not the point, there are still aviation manufacturers beside Airbus in those participating nations.
As for failure or success, most nations really doesn't care if their fighters planes makes profit look at F-22, do you think Lockheed Martin is raking up big bucks?
Same with most war planes.

"Still" as is present day, but no future, France should have pool their resources with Germany and rest of EU to develop a 4th gen together, and quickly move on to its own 5th gen, but since each of them only have enough money to work on their soon to be obsolete 4th gen, no one invests in 5 gen fighter.

And yes Lockheed is raking up HUGE bucks, because they have pretty much monopolized the fighter industry for US as well as US's allies and US's puppet nations. When F-35 raises its price from originally planned 40-50 million a pop to 100+ million today, what can people do? They complain, but in the end they still have no choice but to buy it.

Where do you think those 100+ million a piece F-35 is going to? its going to Lockheed's pocket. This is why China's J-31 is going to be a huge threat to US, because it has the potential to eat Lockheed's lunch.
 
didn't know Boeing Zhoushan Completion Facility Sets China Plan In Motion
Sep 26, 2017
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Boeing’s Zhoushan 737 MAX completion and delivery site is on track for a 2018 debut

Like a well-oiled machine,
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routinely flies newly assembled and painted
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“over the hill” from its busy production facility at Renton, Washington, to Boeing Field, just 5 mi. away, for final checkout and delivery.

The system, which also includes sending some aircraft to Boeing Field for painting, has operated smoothly for decades. So why, from late 2018 onward, will an increasing number of brand-new 737 MAXs fly instead in their green zinc chromate primer an astonishing 5,764 nm from the production line for completion and painting in Zhoushan, China, an island city in Zhejiang province south of Shanghai?

According to Boeing the answer is a “win-win” for both its capacity-pressed production system and its airline customers in China, which together account for about one-third of 737 deliveries. For Boeing, which is in the midst of the biggest single-aisle production ramp-up in its commercial history, the move will free up much-needed completion ramp space at its Seattle-area facilities. For Chinese operators, moving completion closer to home will significantly streamline the final delivery and customer acceptance process.

The initiative,
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was officially announced later that month as Chinese President Xi Jinping made his first state visit to the U.S. Established as part of a joint venture with Comac, the new completion facility represents Boeing’s biggest single overseas commercial aircraft work venture and is the closest the company has come to opening a foreign-based airframe assembly line.

The facility, which will also include a separate Boeing-owned delivery center, will be exclusively dedicated to 737 MAXs destined for Chinese airlines. It is also a significant strategic gambit for the company, which has seen both
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and
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open aircraft assembly lines in China. Airbus’s Tianjin
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final assembly site, established in 2009, has been expanded to include an
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completion facility. Embraer, which said in 2016 it was phasing out its ERJ 145 regional jet line in Harbin, is now considering a Chinese production line for its larger E195-E2 airliner.

The total number of 737s being produced in Renton is set to climb to 52 per month in 2018 from the current output of 47. The proportion of MAX versions coming out of Renton will also quadruple from 2017: Of an estimated 520 737s due for production in 2017, only about 70 will be the MAX version; in 2018, the new family will account for about 280 of the roughly 625 737s expected to be built. And the share is projected to climb dramatically as production reaches 57.7 per month in 2019, which equates to about 690 737s, the bulk of them MAXs.

The Zhoushan site, where groundbreaking took place in May, will particularly help Boeing avoid bottlenecks both at paint shops and on the delivery ramp. It will also mitigate uncertainty over the completion and delivery process, over which Boeing has less control than the carefully structured production system. “There are many benefits for us both in terms of market access and support as the rate increases,” says Boeing. “We are targeting 57 a month in 2019, and we get into constraints to the facilities we have locally here in the Puget Sound area.”

The first aircraft will ferry to Zhoushan in the second half of 2018 after completing their “B1” Boeing production acceptance test flights. The China site will complete exterior painting, a process that currently takes up to three days at the Boeing facilities at Renton or Boeing Field. It will also oversee flight testing and be passed to the Boeing China delivery center for handover to the airline, a process that can take 3-6 weeks, depending on customer specifications.

The China site will formally start operations late next year and, although Boeing originally hoped to begin deliveries by the end of 2018, the company acknowledges that is a “sporty” schedule. The facility is expected to deliver 8-10 aircraft per month and about 100 aircraft over the course of a year. Initial aircraft will arrive from the U.S. fitted with cabin walls and ceilings, and eventually these and other internal components will also be installed in China.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
None of the member countries participating in the Airbus project would have a viable commercial aircraft industry on their own, both from the market and industrial base standpoint. It therefore makes a lot of sense for them to pool their resources to form a permanent consortium as Airbus. China, on the other hand, has the ambition, resources, market, and ultimately the industrial base to develop and sustain a dynamic and robust commercial aircraft industry. It's off to a good start.

The cooperation and JV's with Russia will be selective, depending on the merits of each project/product. The Chinese and Russian are not merging their commercial aircraft industries. Not now, not ever. That would be the Airbus model.

Agreed.

Initially I was surprised that China is doing the C-929 as a JV with Russia.
But now I look at it, it makes more sense.

The domestic markets in China/USA/Europe/Russia are predominantly for single aisle C-919 type aircraft with flight times of less than 4hours or so. The Russians also have a requirement for a longer distance domestic plane as well.

And the next step up from the C-919 is a long-range twin aisle aircraft, but the demand for C-929 sized aircraft is a lot lower AND China needs another country to accept that the flight certification is valid.

So it makes sense for Russia and China to pool resources together for the C-929.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
That is not the point, there are still aviation manufacturers beside Airbus in those participating nations.
As for failure or success, most nations really doesn't care if their fighters planes makes profit look at F-22, do you think Lockheed Martin is raking up big bucks?
Same with most war planes.

The original point is that none of the industrial countries in Europe have the market to sustain a viable commercial airplane manufacturer.

Military planes are another matter. But why pay more for overpriced airplanes if you don't have to?

It would have been much better for France and Germany to pool resources together.
 
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