Chinese Aviation Industry

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I don't know where to put this article as there is no Japanese civilian aviation industry thread . If this is not the right thread please free to move it . But I want to contrast this with Chinese experience that suffer 7 years delay in ARJ 21 production.
Apparently Mitsubishi suffer the same fate. That show, it is not easy to produce civilian aircraft for new entrant.
Considering that Japan has all the access to western proprietary design skill and experience
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Japan's first ever homegrown commercial jetliner is facing yet another big delay.
Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp. said Monday that it now doesn't expect to deliver the first plane until mid-2020. That's two years later than the previous schedule and the fifth time in less than eight years that the company has pushed back delivery plans for its Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ).

The new delay means the initial customer for the plane, Japan's All Nippon Airways (
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), will receive its first delivery seven years later than originally planned.


Mitsubishi said the latest setback "is due to revisions of certain systems and electrical configurations on the aircraft" to meet certification requirements for regulatory approvals.

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The MRJ's difficulties underscore the challenges of competing in the global plane-making industry, where the barriers to entry often mean years of delays and massive cost overruns. It's Japan's first new commercial aircraft in more than 50 years, the last one was powered by turboprop and introduced in 1965.

Mitsubishi says the jet, which seats as many as 92 passengers, uses 20% less fuel than other aircraft in its class because of its efficient engines made by U.S. firm Pratt & Whitney and aerodynamic design.

It puts Mitsubishi in direct competition with Brazilian plane maker Embraer (
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) and Canada's Bombardier (
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), which dominate the market for passenger jets with fewer than 100 seats.

Mitsubishi has more than 230 orders for the aircraft, including from U.S. regional carriers Sky West Airlines, Trans States Holdings and the newly revived Eastern Air Lines.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I don't know where to put this article as there is no Japanese civilian aviation industry thread . If this is not the right thread please free to move it . But I want to contrast this with Chinese experience that suffer 7 years delay in ARJ 21 production.
Apparently Mitsubishi suffer the same fate. That show, it is not easy to produce civilian aircraft for new entrant.
Considering that Japan has all the access to western proprietary design skill and experience
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Japan's first ever homegrown commercial jetliner is facing yet another big delay.
Mitsubishi Aircraft Corp. said Monday that it now doesn't expect to deliver the first plane until mid-2020. That's two years later than the previous schedule and the fifth time in less than eight years that the company has pushed back delivery plans for its Mitsubishi Regional Jet (MRJ).

The new delay means the initial customer for the plane, Japan's All Nippon Airways (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
), will receive its first delivery seven years later than originally planned.


Mitsubishi said the latest setback "is due to revisions of certain systems and electrical configurations on the aircraft" to meet certification requirements for regulatory approvals.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The MRJ's difficulties underscore the challenges of competing in the global plane-making industry, where the barriers to entry often mean years of delays and massive cost overruns. It's Japan's first new commercial aircraft in more than 50 years, the last one was powered by turboprop and introduced in 1965.

Mitsubishi says the jet, which seats as many as 92 passengers, uses 20% less fuel than other aircraft in its class because of its efficient engines made by U.S. firm Pratt & Whitney and aerodynamic design.

It puts Mitsubishi in direct competition with Brazilian plane maker Embraer (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) and Canada's Bombardier (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
), which dominate the market for passenger jets with fewer than 100 seats.

Mitsubishi has more than 230 orders for the aircraft, including from U.S. regional carriers Sky West Airlines, Trans States Holdings and the newly revived Eastern Air Lines.

actually, Mitsbuishi tried to go it alone here and then realized their design process doesn't work at all with the current aviation certification process. It was only after they brought in outside help with more experience that they realized how off the course they were. It's not easy for any new player in this field. As for their orders, these are all very shaky. Let's just see how many of those orders actually get filled. Remember, any orders could be canceled or modified if carrier is not happy with the deliveries and delays.

Also, nobody here has ever said it was going to be easy for COMAC to design ARJ-21. I don't know why you keep on posting stuff to say COMAC should be excused for its delays, since nobody here is saying that these are unexpected. ARJ-21 was a really large undertaking for COMAC and they got a lot of stuff wrong because they did not know what's required to getting a new airliner certified. Now with C919, they are learning from ARJ-21 mistakes, but it will still be a huge undertaking.

I expect C919 to be delayed but will be a much better product than ARJ-21. From what I heard, you should be expecting a lot of delays, but they need to take their time to get it right.
 

Franklin

Captain
The C-919 will have its maiden flight before july. There are already 570 planes on order from 23 airlines.

Chinese passenger plane to rival Boeing and Airbus tipped to be in skies by July

China's first homegrown passenger plane is to take to the skies before July this year, according to state media.

A China state-owned manufacturer first unveiled the C919 in November 2015, leaving analysts wondering whether it can compete with major manufacturers such as Airbus and Boeing.

The single-aisle aircraft, which can seat 168 passengers, has now installed its on-board system and undertaken a series of load tests.

The People's Daily Online said Tuesday that test results confirm "that the framework of the jetliner is strong enough to support future navigation."

The plane, produced by the state-owned Commercial Aircraft Corp of China (COMAC), was originally scheduled to make its debut journey in 2015, but the date was pushed back to satisfy additional testing.

COMAC designed the C919 plane to compete with other single aisle jets such as the Airbus 320 and Boeing's 737.

In 2015 Qatar Airways Chief Executive Akbar Al Baker said that he would have "no hesitation at all in buying Chinese airplanes," as long as they were made to the standard that he wanted.

"There is nothing wrong with buying Chinese. You use an iPhone, which is made in China. Designed by somebody else, but made in China. I think it would be good for this (Boeing/Airbus) monopoly to be broken," Al Baker told CNBC at the Dubai Airshow.

The state manufacturer told media in November 2016 it has received 570 orders for the C919 from 23 customers, including government run firms Air China, China Southern and Shanghai-based China Eastern Airlines.

Chinese demand for new airplanes is proving a key battleground for passenger plane makers. Airbus estimated in its 2016-2035 forecast that the Chinese airlines will need nearly 6,000 new planes worth US$945 billion over the next two decades.

COMAC has also developed a smaller regional jet, the ARJ21, which took to the skies in June 2016.

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Also, nobody here has ever said it was going to be easy for COMAC to design ARJ-21. I don't know why you keep on posting stuff to say COMAC should be excused for its delays, since nobody here is saying that these are unexpected. ARJ-21 was a really large undertaking for COMAC and they got a lot of stuff wrong because they did not know what's required to getting a new airliner certified. Now with C919, they are learning from ARJ-21 mistakes, but it will still be a huge undertaking.

I expect C919 to be delayed but will be a much better product than ARJ-21. From what I heard, you should be expecting a lot of delays, but they need to take their time to get it right.

It is not the case of I defending China from criticizing AVIC, It more the case of you unfairly too harsh when it come to China achievement
You refuse to recognized it out of antipathy and deep insecurity. Always comparing it to US or Europe That is unfair comparison since those country has leg up when it come to aviation.They have built thousand of aircraft and has the financial muscle and the whole western skill,experience
behind them.

China is until recently a poor agriculture country even now 50% of the population still live in countryside
You keep derisively commenting, depreciate China achievement which I think is tremendous.

No developing country ever! has achieved what china did in the last 40 years One of them that I am proud of is lifting 700 million out of poverty by themselves with no war or conquest
People should give credit where credit is due no more and no less
The missionaries couldn't do it they only bring bible and cannon and misery along the Yangtze river Not that I am anti Christianity having been born catholic myself
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
It is not the case of I defending China from criticizing AVIC, It more the case of you unfairly too harsh when it come to China achievement
You refuse to recognized it out of antipathy and deep insecurity. Always comparing it to US or Europe That is unfair comparison since those country has leg up when it come to aviation.They have built thousand of aircraft and has the financial muscle and the whole western skill,experience
behind them.
Your comment to Feng is off base, especially on comparing China's commercial airliner achievements with US or European makers. Who else do you suppose China should compares its achievements with? Bhutan? Congo? The reasons US and Europe get the golden measure are because they got there first, and they're the most successful. If China wish to join the elites, then it must reach and then exceed their achievements.

China is until recently a poor agriculture country even now 50% of the population still live in countryside
You keep derisively commenting, depreciate China achievement which I think is tremendous.

No developing country ever! has achieved what china did in the last 40 years One of them that I am proud of is lifting 700 million out of poverty by themselves with no war or conquest
People should give credit where credit is due no more and no less
You say China should be given same credit, no more and no less, but when people evaluate China's commercial airliner achivements on that basis and find them sub-par (par as in US/Europe), then you cry a river. Are you trying to have it both ways?

The missionaries couldn't do it they only bring bible and cannon and misery along the Yangtze river Not that I am anti Christianity having been born catholic myself
How is this germane to C-919 or ARJ-21? Also, your all inclusive comment is demonstrably false.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Your comment to Feng is off base, especially on comparing China's commercial airliner achievements with US or European makers. Who else do you suppose China should compares its achievements with? Bhutan? Congo? The reasons US and Europe get the golden measure are because they got there first, and they're the most successful. If China wish to join the elites, then it must reach and then exceed their achievements.

If you want to compare apple to apple compare it to India that because both country are at the same starting point!. More or less the same industrial base and know how.
You are completely off base here

You say China should be given same credit, no more and no less, but when people evaluate China's commercial airliner achivements on that basis and find them sub-par (par as in US/Europe), then you cry a river. Are you trying to have it both ways?

NO because China cannot get preferential treatment like licensing technology or access to whole western world experience . In other word she competing with one hand tie in the back She is under strict technology embargo. No access to western aerodynamic institute or Lab line NASA


How is this germane to C-919 or ARJ-21? Also, your all inclusive comment is demonstrably false.

Because Feng is recent convert to Christianity according to comment on his blog and his religious fervent cloud his judgement. His recent outburst for Christianity proof that
 
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AF-1

Junior Member
Registered Member
What happened with ARJ-21 deliveries? It supposed to have a lot of orders but as far as i know only 2 have been delivered. Is this going to serial production?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
It is not the case of I defending China from criticizing AVIC, It more the case of you unfairly too harsh when it come to China achievement
You refuse to recognized it out of antipathy and deep insecurity. Always comparing it to US or Europe That is unfair comparison since those country has leg up when it come to aviation.They have built thousand of aircraft and has the financial muscle and the whole western skill,experience
behind them.

China is until recently a poor agriculture country even now 50% of the population still live in countryside
You keep derisively commenting, depreciate China achievement which I think is tremendous.

No developing country ever! has achieved what china did in the last 40 years One of them that I am proud of is lifting 700 million out of poverty by themselves with no war or conquest
People should give credit where credit is due no more and no less
The missionaries couldn't do it they only bring bible and cannon and misery along the Yangtze river Not that I am anti Christianity having been born catholic myself

I don't know why my religion has anything to do with it, but I've been Christian the entire time I have been on this forum (and far longer than that). So if people think I have become less pro-China, it has nothing to do with my religion.

I'm going to leave this out there, so people can stop blaming Christianity for polluting my thoughts. Now if you think you know better than me how long I have been a Christian, you definitely need to get yourself checked out.

As for antipathy and insecurity toward Chinese achievement, I don't believe a country that has been as accomplished and done well as China needs to be cuddled around all day. That kind of stuff goes on in some other forums where members are so insecure about their country or native country that they can't stand for any opposition comment. I have role here to be realistic and honest about where I think China is and what kind of challenges it faces. Especially as a moderator, I welcome the views of everyone.

As for the part about China cannot get access to stuff, it definitely can in civilian aviation. There are plenty of European and American companies and engineers who have been involved with COMAC. They are still handicapped by lack of experience, but that's a reality check . When airlines buy planes, they are not going to care about the advances China makes. They will buy based on whether the plane is safe, reliable and cheap to operate. China chose to climb this extremely high mountain of modern aviation. The real judges of their success will be airlines and aviation certifications. I'm telling you what I think based on what I know about civilian aviation industry. If you disagree with it, that's fine. Raise your counterpoints rather than attack the person.
 
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