Chinese Aviation Industry

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
I can only infer some hints which try to answer my question !!!

But there is no clear answer ... yet.

Firstly, to clear things.... no body needs to be apologetic about reverse engineering. Is there a single instance where reverse engineering of a foreign product actually hurt Soviet Union ... or for that mattter China ? The answser is NO.

Obviously, there is NO disadvantage of doing reverse engineering (... on such stupid grounds as "illegality", "immorality" and other such bull).

The real question is .... what stops other nations from doing reverse engineering. That was real crux of my questioning. And I got only a few hints .... but no clear answer.

Possible Answer 1:

Someone above gave a hint that reverse engineering is NOT EASY. Presumably, you need to have a great manufacturing base to be able to do it (.. and only China has it, as of now).


Russia, US, Europe or Japan also have that kind of a manufacturing base .... but as of now, they don't need to do any reverse engineering.

In other words, India needs to further build up it's manufacturing base.... before it can successfully reverse engineer, say for example, the Su-30MKI.

Same constraint could be deterrent for Brazil or South Korea too (e.g. they have failed to develop space rockets, thus far).

Possibly it needs even further level of development to be able to reverse engineer aircraft engines.

So, Capability to Reverse Engineer is a real issue.


Possible Answer 2:

Reverse Engineering is not Cheap.

China possibly intends to induct 500 reverse engineered Su-27.

Thus, saving on license feel payable to russia = 500 x License Fee per Su-27 (for every license manufactured aircraft).

If this total license fee is much more than cost of Reverse Engineering, only then it makes economic sense to do it.

India has a requirement of only 250 Su-30MKI. It may be economically better to pay the license fee on 250 aircraft, rather than spend much more money on reverse engineering Su-30MKI.

Reverse Engineering fails on economic grounds, if original copies come cheaper.

Possible reason 3:

Reverse Engineering can help in self-sufficiency.

Even if it's costlier than buying original copies .... it will remove dependence on, say Russia.

However, true technological independence comes .... only if subsequent planes can be developed from scratch. Otherwise, in future also you would need a blueprint, sample of a later technology to be able to reverse engineer.

Reverse Engineering can only help "catch-up", not leadership. That suggests that even China will like to stop this reverse engineering business and focus on basic R&D.

Reverse Engineering can help make copies of, e.g. Su-27, but does not give calibration charts on technical parameters ... which would be vital to next phase of developments.


Summing Up:

1. Capability to Reverse Engineer is a real issue. Everybody doesn't have that capability, as of now.
2. Reverse Engineering can be economically viable if you have a large volume demand for reverse engineered copies (better so, if you can export it as well).
3. Reverse Engineering can have some gain for understanding contemporary technology.


Some combination of the above factors could also be the reason why India does not intend to reverse engineer A-320.

Anyway, these are only what can be inferred from above comments. There could be further issues involved (like reliability of a reverse engineered A-320).

Quality of Reverse Engineering is Much More Important for Civilian applications, than for military applications.

Stating of the obvious... everyone in this forum know of what you have stated down. The only thing that you have pointed out on the Su-27 reverse engineering is that IT IS NOT REVERSE ENGINEERED! The PLA had the blueprint and technical assistance from the Russian, it is called LICENSE BUILD! So common sense has it, this is not a reverse engineered product.

The first few batches of J-11 are all using Russian kits with domestical contents coming in in later batches (all in the contract). The main reason for the Chinese to do that was because of the following,

1) Lack of experience in designing and building modern fighters
2) Lack of very advance manufacturing bases.
3) Lack of knowledge in this term
4) Speed of getting their airforce up to standard.

And after they receive all these technical knowhow and stuff like that, they began to radically improve on the J-11, using advance domestical radar, soon using own domestically designed and produced engines, own missiles and weapons and also using more composite material to reduce weigh of the fighter.

And to a nation - who cares about what others called when reverse engineering, especially when it came to weapons. But if you are going to clone something civilians that are being patented, you will get sue for it, and that is what patentship are for (to prevent direct copies of the product).

And how to this thing works? Very easy, someone (say, BAe or Airbus) patented hundreds of thousands of design and manufacturing process on A320. China wanted to reverse engineered it, and could reverse engineered it. Then came out with exactly the same design as the A320. What next? Sell it to international market? Airbus will bring the chinese company to court, force them to pay royalty or pull out their products from the market.

The European consortium is very powerful in this, they might even stop or ban airline operating the cloned A320 from entering their airports or airspace for that matter. So the only airlines who dare to purchase this product are the domestic airlines in China... which btw was making huge losses each year.

So what is cheaper for China to do? Buy A320 as per normal and forgoes all these crap about royalties and stuff like that, at least their international airlines could fly freely.

And what is more? C919 or this stuffs are coming out too. So why do you want to risk getting sued or things like that for cloning something that you could actually produced domestically?

Second, China's manufacturing bases and strenght plus technical know how was already not like... say... 50 years ago. They could stand on their own, without need of cloning aircrafts and ships... plus if really wanted to, they could... look at some of their rocket launchers, their Humvee lookalike and the such.

Plus... cloning of enemy's weapons would never hurt CHina or Soviet Union or whatever countries or nations in history. People are doing it for centuries. What will hurt China was that she was thrown into a needless arm race that would deplete all of her treasury and money... and the country will split into small little fractions.
 

bingo

Junior Member
Stating of the obvious... everyone in this forum know of what you have stated down. The only thing that you have pointed out on the Su-27 reverse engineering is that IT IS NOT REVERSE ENGINEERED! The PLA had the blueprint and technical assistance from the Russian, it is called LICENSE BUILD! So common sense has it, this is not a reverse engineered product.

In this thread, where ever anyone says "Su-27 reverse engineered" it actually means that "there are only allegations that it's reverse engineered".

We can only talk about on this forum informally ..... referring to "allegations" only.

I just thought I'll look up somewhere .... and the notorious wikipedia was the easiest source.

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"The Shenyang J-11 (JianJiJi-11 or Jian-11, 歼击机-11 or 歼-11 in Chinese) with NATO reporting name: Flanker B+ is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter based on the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name: Flanker) air superiority fighter produced by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) is the sole operator of the aircraft.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, only 95 of the original aircraft were delivered and the contact for the remaining 105 is still pending. It is believed that Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China had reverse-engineered the technology and was developing an indigenous version, the J-11B. China however insists that it requested Russia to cease deliveries of the aircraft because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements. The J-11B variant while lacking the latest Russian features, does incorporate various Chinese modifications to the airframe in addition to the inclusion of Chinese avionics and weaponry."

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Offcourse this is only wikipedia quote and many people don't trust it.

But it does say, officially, J-11 not considered as reverse-engineered ... Russian allegations not withstanding.

Anyways, the focus was to assess the "value of Reverse Engineering as a viable option, esp given Russian and Chinese experiences"

Examples such as Mig-21, Su-27, Su-30MKI, A-320, Aircrat Engine Reverse Engineering, or even a Hypothetical RE of F-22 as just for illustration.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
In this thread, where ever anyone says "Su-27 reverse engineered" it actually means that "there are only allegations that it's reverse engineered".

We can only talk about on this forum informally ..... referring to "allegations" only.

I just thought I'll look up somewhere .... and the notorious wikipedia was the easiest source.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"The Shenyang J-11 (JianJiJi-11 or Jian-11, 歼击机-11 or 歼-11 in Chinese) with NATO reporting name: Flanker B+ is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter based on the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name: Flanker) air superiority fighter produced by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) is the sole operator of the aircraft.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, only 95 of the original aircraft were delivered and the contact for the remaining 105 is still pending. It is believed that Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China had reverse-engineered the technology and was developing an indigenous version, the J-11B. China however insists that it requested Russia to cease deliveries of the aircraft because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements. The J-11B variant while lacking the latest Russian features, does incorporate various Chinese modifications to the airframe in addition to the inclusion of Chinese avionics and weaponry."

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Offcourse this is only wikipedia quote and many people don't trust it.

But it does say, officially, J-11 not considered as reverse-engineered ... Russian allegations not withstanding.

Anyways, the focus was to assess the "value of Reverse Engineering as a viable option, esp given Russian and Chinese experiences"

Examples such as Mig-21, Su-27, Su-30MKI, A-320, Aircrat Engine Reverse Engineering, or even a Hypothetical RE of F-22 as just for illustration.

Like you say, wikipedia is not a very reliable source, but I myself is guilty to be using it a number of time... anyway...

After building 95 Su-27 with Russian's assistance, do you not think that the Chinese learned how to create the Su-27 already? And as you have seen many of the things are just one sided story from Russian. That is really not a full fledge reverse engineering. Now if you say that the H-5 and H-6 are reverse engineered product, then yes, I would agreed. I think even the J-7 are reverse engineered product with certain modification.

J-11 - not reverse engineered. J-11B improved and modernised version of J-11 (many can argue that it is essentially reverse engineered, though).

As to the feasibility of reverse engineering as a whole, I have already put that study in my previous posts, you don't just reverse engineer something just because you could or you couldn't.

There are many factors involved,

1) Cost - economy
2) Economy of scale
3) feasibility
4) etc

As for consumer products (civilian products) like big aircrafts (A320), never reverse engineer this product even if you can. Because you will not be able to sell it overseas and overseas consortium such as EU and even the US, might ban or restrict you from flying into their airspace. Which would means that few airlines will then wanted to buy your aircrafts... even those after the clone A320. Not a wise move, especially with China going global.

Weapons or military hardwares wise... no problem at all... if you do not want to export these weapons to other people.

As to the very modern stealth plane... impossible to reverse engineered these product without actually getting your hands on these products, unless you have a network of spies that had somehow managed to break into US and get the blueprint, together with all technical documents out of it.

Plus there really is no need to do such stupid things, when perhaps all of us have underestimate CHina's high tech capability, they might be able to design and manufactured this type of aircraft already, might not be as good as F-22, but was there.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
In this thread, where ever anyone says "Su-27 reverse engineered" it actually means that "there are only allegations that it's reverse engineered".

We can only talk about on this forum informally ..... referring to "allegations" only.

I just thought I'll look up somewhere .... and the notorious wikipedia was the easiest source.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"The Shenyang J-11 (JianJiJi-11 or Jian-11, 歼击机-11 or 歼-11 in Chinese) with NATO reporting name: Flanker B+ is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter based on the Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27 (NATO reporting name: Flanker) air superiority fighter produced by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. The People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) of the People's Republic of China (PRC) is the sole operator of the aircraft.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5 billion production agreement which licensed China to build 200 Soviet-designed Sukhoi Su-27SK aircraft using Russian-supplied kits. Under the terms of the agreement, these aircraft would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, only 95 of the original aircraft were delivered and the contact for the remaining 105 is still pending. It is believed that Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China had reverse-engineered the technology and was developing an indigenous version, the J-11B. China however insists that it requested Russia to cease deliveries of the aircraft because it could no longer satisfy the PLAAF's requirements. The J-11B variant while lacking the latest Russian features, does incorporate various Chinese modifications to the airframe in addition to the inclusion of Chinese avionics and weaponry."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offcourse this is only wikipedia quote and many people don't trust it.

But it does say, officially, J-11 not considered as reverse-engineered ... Russian allegations not withstanding.

Anyways, the focus was to assess the "value of Reverse Engineering as a viable option, esp given Russian and Chinese experiences"

Examples such as Mig-21, Su-27, Su-30MKI, A-320, Aircrat Engine Reverse Engineering, or even a Hypothetical RE of F-22 as just for illustration.

Even from your wiki source, the key is "reverse-engineered the technology ".
There is a big difference between the technology and the product itself.
Being able reverse-engineer the product usually results in poor quality copies, but absorbing the technology would enable you to use it to produce something better.
Such is the case of Su-27 and J-11B, if the pilot interface of J-11B is like using Windows 7, then that of the Su-27 is like Windows 95.
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
(Note, the F-22 has a fixed intake as well, and yet it can still supercruise...)


Just came back to this thread again because I was looking at some F-22 photos and it looks like it DOES have variable intake ramps.

Let me demonstrate - first,
F-15's variable intake ramps in 2 different positions

369px-F-15E_Strike_Eagle_is_parked_by_a_crew_chief_from_Elmendorf_Air_Force_Base.jpg



and now,
F-22
F-22-Raptor-USAF-Red-flag-01.jpg




Notice the leading edge flaps just above the air-intakes?

I know this theory sounds quite out there since various test pilots and Lockheed Martin has stated F-22 only has fixed inlets. But call me crazy but I think those leading edge flaps can act as variable intake ramps if it needs to be.


Another example
T-50/PAK-FA
Sukhoi-T-50-PAK-FA-KnAAPO-1AS.jpg

Sukhoi-T-50-PAK-FA-KnAAPO-2AS.jpg


It also seem to have leading edge flaps neatly "cut to size" for the air-intakes.

So, I am going to go out of my way to say, F-22 does have variable air ramps! :D
 
Last edited:

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
or it could be that the moving part is actually just the inner bit, between the fuselage and the intake, and it moves away at great speeds to let the thick, slow boundary layer of air pass next to the intake, instead of spilling into it. And the reason why it is covered here is because a good portion of the time the plane wont be flying so fast to need it, and during those moments its better to have a continuous surface, to aid the RCS.
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
or it could be that the moving part is actually just the inner bit, between the fuselage and the intake, and it moves away at great speeds to let the thick, slow boundary layer of air pass next to the intake, instead of spilling into it. And the reason why it is covered here is because a good portion of the time the plane wont be flying so fast to need it, and during those moments its better to have a continuous surface, to aid the RCS.


Again, I must state that I am no subject expert.
With that been said, it looks to me that variable intake ramps are the flaps above the intakes that reduce the cross section of intakes in order to increase the pressure of air coming into the intakes.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
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63x2k9.jpg


中国航空报社
面对重点型号研制任务重、多架机高度交叉作业等实际情况,中航工业陕飞对照年度既定目标,查找差距,及时协调解决制约科研、生产的瓶颈问题,同时以创先争优、质量月、主题活动为契机,大力开展劳动竞赛、青年突击、短线攻关等活动。图为陕飞总装厂充分发挥党员模范先锋带头作用,举行“我是党员,向我看齐”授旗宣誓仪式。

see the official photo, there is a china new mid type transport plane assemble in XAC, maybe new type Y-9, maybe another new mid type transport plane.see the CG pic below:

a8rup.jpg
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
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[qimg]http://i54.tinypic.com/63x2k9.jpg[/qimg]

中国航空报社
面对重点型号研制任务重、多架机高度交叉作业等实际情况,中航工业陕飞对照年度既定目标,查找差距,及时协调解决制约科研、生产的瓶颈问题,同时以创先争优、质量月、主题活动为契机,大力开展劳动竞赛、青年突击、短线攻关等活动。图为陕飞总装厂充分发挥党员模范先锋带头作用,举行“我是党员,向我看齐”授旗宣誓仪式。

see the official photo, there is a china new mid type transport plane assemble in XAC, maybe new type Y-9, maybe another new mid type transport plane.see the CG pic below:

[qimg]http://i54.tinypic.com/a8rup.jpg[/qimg]
Perhaps this is the Y-9 we've all been waiting for indeed... Man XAC have sure taken their sweet time about this.

Question -- does anyone know whether those six bladed propellers (called JL-4 from huitong's site?) are the same as on the KJ-200, and whether their indigenous or foreign?

(btw: this looks like the photo is actually the Y-9 -- Huitong's just updated his site:
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)
 

A.Man

Major
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[qimg]http://i54.tinypic.com/63x2k9.jpg[/qimg]


see the official photo, there is a china new mid type transport plane assemble in XAC, maybe new type Y-9, maybe another new mid type transport plane.see the CG pic below:

[qimg]http://i54.tinypic.com/a8rup.jpg[/qimg]

This is Shaanfei, not Xifei.

Shaanfei is located in Hanzhong of Shaanxi Province.
 
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