Chinese Aviation Industry

Yet, Bombardier bet their future on the C series. This is an article by Global & Mail in Canada, so obviously it's going to be on Bombardier's side. Do you expect Bombarider execs to say something other than CRJ is an aircraft with good operating economics? CRJ is still getting it's orders, but if you look at the airlines, they are all moving up in size.

Spirit and Frontier all operate A320 series rather than E-jet or CRJ. Jetblue tried to go for ERJ-90, but it had such a tough time with its operating and maintenance cost that it's basically postponing taking the last 20 jets infinitely.

Back 10 years ago, a major proportion of A320 series that was produced was A319. Now, basically nobody orders A319 anymore and everyone has moved up to A321. Similarly, B737 MAX 7 gets very few orders. It doesn't make sense for LCCs to operate more than one aircraft type. The legacy airlines are all getting rid of their smaller planes and ordering larger planes. The market in China and surrounding regions for C919 is huge. But they really have to proof that it meets standard in maintenance cost, operational cost and reliability. That's what you should look at ARJ-21. It's something that will teach COMAC on how to really satisfy market requirements for delivering on schedule, performance and costs.

tphuang said:

Yet, Bombardier bet their future on the C series. This is an article by Global & Mail in Canada, so obviously it's going to be on Bombardier's side. Do you expect Bombarider execs to say something other than CRJ is an aircraft with good operating economics? CRJ is still getting it's orders, but if you look at the airlines, they are all moving up in size.

Spirit and Frontier all operate A320 series rather than E-jet or CRJ. Jetblue tried to go for ERJ-90, but it had such a tough time with its operating and maintenance cost that it's basically postponing taking the last 20 jets infinitely.

Back 10 years ago, a major proportion of A320 series that was produced was A319. Now, basically nobody orders A319 anymore and everyone has moved up to A321. Similarly, B737 MAX 7 gets very few orders. It doesn't make sense for LCCs to operate more than one aircraft type. The legacy airlines are all getting rid of their smaller planes and ordering larger planes. The market in China and surrounding regions for C919 is huge. But they really have to proof that it meets standard in maintenance cost, operational cost and reliability. That's what you should look at ARJ-21. It's something that will teach COMAC on how to really satisfy market requirements for delivering on schedule, performance and costs.

Click to expand...

The regional jet market appeared in the 1990s, in became solid and strong by the early 2000s,
Bombardier is only trying to move to a larger market, that larger market is riskier, the airplanes are more expensive to build and design, the E-190 is a 25 million jet, pretty cheap a A-380 is at least in the range of several hundreds of million dollars.

The regional market implies less risks in research and development and the market is a good one, if you see the regional market is larger in numbers but smaller in profits, the opposite is the jumbo jet market, they build much less aircraft but the profits are higher.

The A-320, and B-373 market is in between, therefore is the best from the stand point of sales and profits, but it is dominated by Boeing and Airbus, trying to compete with them is a higher risk, Bombardier prioritizes the C series because it can bankrupt it.

And it is the same for Russia`s and Chinese aircraft makers

The legislation if becoming law, will not only block Boeing but also Airbus as it is very likely to use more than 10% components (don't know the detail) from American companies.

Another example of how important technological and industrial independence and self-relience is. I am sure C919 at its current stage uses more than 10%.

Contrary to the opinion of our"expert" COMAC keep winning order a further boost to ARJ 21 and on the way to success. A big vote of confidence regardless of FAA certification. So the skeptic are wrong. 30 planes are sold with option for 30 more

Chinese lessor orders ARJ-21 jets in $2.3 billion deal
Reuters 6 hours ago

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By Siva Govindasamy

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - China Aircraft Leasing Group (CALC) (1848.HK) has bought 30 Comac ARJ-21 regional jets and signed options for 30 more in a deal potentially worth $2.3 billion.

The planes would be used by an unnamed Indonesian airline in which CALC's parent, Hong Kong-based investment firm Friedmann Pacific Asset Management, plans to invest in, the leasing company said in a statement late on Monday.

The 78-90 seater jets would be delivered over the next five years, and Chinese state-owned planemaker Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China Ltd (Comac) would set up maintenance and after-sales offices in Indonesia as part of the deal.

The leasing firm, which ordered 20 of Comac's larger C919 narrowbody planes in 2012, said the latest deal reflected its confidence in China-made aircraft, and allowed it more flexibility to provide leasing options for airlines.

CALC has 70 Airbus (AIR.PA) and Boeing (BA.N) aircraft and says that it has another 103 Airbus planes on order, allowing it to expand its fleet to 173 aircraft by 2022.

In a separate statement, Comac said it had also received another order for 30 ARJ-21 jets from AVIC Leasing, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corporation of China. It did not disclose the value of the deal.

The orders are a boost for the ARJ-21, which is more than 10 years behind its original schedule and had its first commercial flight with Chengdu Airlines in end-June.

It competes with similar small passenger jets produced by Brazil's Embraer SA (EMBR3.SA), Canada's Bombardier Inc (BBDb.TO) and the Russian Sukhoi Superjet.

The ARJ-21 has garnered just over 300 orders, mainly from domestic carriers. General Electric Co's (GE.N) aviation arm supplies the engines, and its leasing firm has ordered five planes with options for 20 more.

It has not received certification from other regulators such as the United States' Federal Aviation Administration, which means that only airlines in China and those that recognize the Chinese certification process can operate the aircraft.

China is keen to establish itself as a global supplier of aircraft, and hopes that its in-development C919 narrowbody jet will compete with the established 737s and A320s. It is also working on a widebody aircraft project with Russia.

(Additional Reporting by Brenda Goh in SHANGHAI; Editing by Stephen Coates and Jacqueline Wong)

I have to revise the order quantity. The news is getting better and better. There are actually 2 order totaling 90 aircraft on top of 300 tentative order

This proof once and for all that there is still huge market out there that COMAC can filled contrary to the skeptic assertion that 70-100 passenger aircraft has no future. Or ARJ 21 is doomed because she is not certified by FAA. Well FAA eat your heart out!

Airshow - COMAC Wins Order for 90 ARJ21s from Chinese Lessors
China Aviation Daily | Jul. 12, 2016




The ARJ21-700, Registration B-3321, operated the inaugural passenger flight from Shanghai to Chengdu on June 28.



Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, Limited (COMAC) has won commitments for 90 ARJ21 regional jets from two Chinese lessors at Farnborough International Airshow, with both deals targeted at putting the Chinese aircraft with foreign customers.

On July 11, China Aircraft Leasing Group (CALC) and aviation investment company Friedmann Pacific Asset Management signed a preliminary order with COMAC for 60 ARJ21-700s, including 30 options. The deal marks the largest single commercial order of ARJ21 for the Chinese manufacturer.

The 78-90-seat jets would be delivered over the next five years, and COMAC would set up maintenance and after-sales offices in Indonesia as part of the deal, the leasing company said in a statement late on Monday.

In a separate statement, COMAC said it has also received another order for 30 ARJ-21 jets from AVIC Leasing, a subsidiary of Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

COMAC president He Dongfeng said the manufacturer will work with the lessor and other domestic and overseas customers to promote the indigenous regional jet.

The China-grown ARJ21 regional jet entered into service with launch customer Chengdu Airlines in late June, after 14 years of development.

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I clearly said they need to use their resource on C919 and not concern itself with ARJ-21 90 seater upgrades, because that's where the market is. And the market is moving up in aircraft capacity. All of this has been demonstrated in the recent air show with A321 getting the majority of orders. No where did I said they cannot sell more of ARJ-21.

Like any other project COMAC will improve ARJ 21 by substituting for lighter material and built the stretched version maybe update in avionic. A well trodden path pioneer by Bombardier and Embraer

Time to flashback at ARJ 21 basher like this guy here Aboulafia. Yeah right


The death of the Soviet aero universe resonates today because China seems to be heading down a Soviet path. In China, a government-owned industry is creating jets primarily for the national market. While Western suppliers are welcome to bid components, intellectual property (IP) concerns guarantee that they will bid last-generation technology. An emphasis on locally-based joint ventures makes things worse—there will be pressure on the prime to select products created by these joint ventures. Unlike the Soviets, China hasn’t erected a wall around its aero industry; just unpleasant barriers that modern technology might not cross.

This is more than a theoretical concern. Take China’s ARJ21 regional jet. Please. For the past decade, this misbegotten clunker was presented as a harbinger of China’s coming aviation challenge. Today, it’s simple. Non-aero people take this plane seriously, seeing it as yet another example of the eclipse of Western manufacturing by a rising China. Aviation professionals think it’s a disaster. It’s heavy enough to be a typical Soviet jet, with 15% more weight per seat than Bombardier or Embraer’s equivalents. It uses imported equipment that was state of the art a decade or two ago. Some unlucky Chinese carriers might be forced to take a few, putting them at a competitive disadvantage against anyone with a good aircraft.

So far, the ARJ21 story has been one of polite deference. Nobody wants to deliver the bad news. On his visit to China this month, President Obama even promised to assist AVIC with US certification for the ARJ21. He endorsed a check that nobody in their right mind would ever cash. But China’s industry would be better off getting some tough love. To put it in Berlin Wall terms, Premier Wen, tear down this plane.

China needs to hear the truth about the ARJ21 because there’s still time to save the larger C919, avoiding a repeat of the ARJ21 fiasco. They should start by privatizing AVIC (a move that’s already on the agenda). This would be risky—there’s no guarantee a private firm would be able to raise the capital—but government-owned companies simply don’t meet commercial market needs. China has a vibrant private sector economy and a sluggish government sector. Its aviation industry needs to be part of the private sector.

Second, if you must build your own jet (rather than focusing on new technology), build for export markets. Re-inventing the DC-9 as the ARJ21 was bad enough. If the C919 is merely a 30-year late re-invention of the A320, it too will go nowhere.

Finally, and most of all, the C919’s designers need complete freedom to select the latest and best technology—engines, avionics, structures, materials, etc—from suppliers around the world. That means IP protection for Western suppliers (which would be easier if they were dealing with a privatized Chinese company). It means no preferential treatment for locally-based joint ventures. Most of all, it means an end to Chinese Government talk of creating national engine and other equipment champions. Telling Western suppliers that you want their latest and best while also creating national companies to compete with them guarantees obsolete content, and therefore another useless jet.

Twenty years after the Wall, as we survey the wreckage of the post-Soviet world, it’s important to note that Chinese scientific and engineering talent is among the best in the world (just like in the Soviet Union). China has a superb home market (just like the Soviet Union had). China has adequate capital (just like the Soviet Union’s aviation industry had). China wants to construct a broad array of jet families (just like the Soviet Union did). But without economic freedom, it means nothing. If China continues down this path, its aviation industry will be heading down the same Soviet dead end street.

We’ve updated the ARJ21 report this month, but our forecast remains grim. Other updates include the more successful MRJ, the CH-47, NH90, Lynx, Jaguar, KT-1/T-50, and the TBM700/850. A very happy holiday season to all.

Yours, ‘Til The Term “National Jet” Evokes Laughter,

Wasn't he the guy who scoffed at the J-20 as just a derivative of the old J-8 when the J-20 prototype was first revealed?

Hendrik_2000 said:

I have to revise the order quantity. The news is getting better and better. There are actually 2 order totaling 90 aircraft on top of 300 tentative order

This proof once and for all that there is still huge market out there that COMAC can filled contrary to the skeptic assertion that 70-100 passenger aircraft has no future. Or ARJ 21 is doomed because she is not certified by FAA. Well FAA eat your heart out!

Airshow - COMAC Wins Order for 90 ARJ21s from Chinese Lessors
China Aviation Daily | Jul. 12, 2016

Click to expand...

OK, sure it's good news for COMAC, but I'd be a lot more excited if it wins international orders, and eventually even orders from the developed world. Nevertheless, it's a good beginning and important milestone for Sino aviation.

Well, it sort of is a foreign order, since the airline that's taking them on is Indonesian, and COMAC is setting up infrastructure there.

The ARJ-21 already has a decent international sales record, now it's the C919 turn (only had one from Thailand so far, but once the plane starts flying this year, that might change).