Chinese Aviation Industry

delft

Brigadier
Two points:

Now that ARJ-21 is entering commercial use a servicing organization is necessary which will mean an education in itself to the manufacturer. So first do it within China and only then in countries you sell aircraft to and the countries they want to fly to, for example begin with Iran and the aircraft your Iranian client wants to fly to with your aircraft.

A very well known aircraft still in production started in commercial service 48 years ago: the Boeing 737. Some things in that aircraft must have been modernized several times by now. Similarly ARJ-21 can be modernized. But building the organization to design, build and maintain Chinese commercial aircraft is worth more than the ARJ-21 project itself.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
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The signing marks a new stage in implementation of the joint project: the beginning of the aircraft design.

Russian Minister of Trade and Industry Denis Manturov told reporters: "This is yet another stage. It is now a more advanced stage. Work has continued since 2008. It is that it is going through various stages. First, the marketing. Then, the beginning of a preliminary plan. The next stage is the design proper. The design is about to begin, the preliminary plan needs to be completed."
...
Speaking of the stakes distribution in the joint venture, he said: "In the heavy aircraft, it will be 50-50. [It will be created] in China in the very near future. That is what has been decided."

Good news, that is one further step to realization.

It seems to be after the model of Airbus, 50-50 between France and Germany at its beginning, headquartered in France.

It seems that most of Chinese media outlets have equaled it with C929 which is logical.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
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Good news, that is one further step to realization.

It seems to be after the model of Airbus, 50-50 between France and Germany at its beginning, headquartered in France.

It seems that most of Chinese media outlets have equaled it with C929 which is logical.
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Good news, that is one further step to realization.

It seems to be after the model of Airbus, 50-50 between France and Germany at its beginning, headquartered in France.

It seems that most of Chinese media outlets have equaled it with C929 which is logical.
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It ain't a good deal unless China get the chance to manufacture jet engine. Russia already said its gonna design the engine and China provides the fund. I have feeling they gonna keep the engine manufacturing in Russia and only let China do the jet body assembly.

If this is the case, it's not a good deal. Then its a Raw Deal.
It's a Very Sneaky idea on Russia to ask China provide the fund and make China continuously depend on its Engine.

What China should do is do some hedging. It should develope its own C929 engine in parallel. If Russia refuse to let China to manufacture the engine, then China can stop using them

This is not different than PAK-FA Scam they currently running.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
.
It ain't a good deal unless China get the chance to manufacture jet engine. Russia already said its gonna design the engine and China provides the fund. I have feeling they gonna keep the engine manufacturing in Russia and only let China do the jet body assembly.

If this is the case, it's not a good deal. Then its a Raw Deal.
It's a Very Sneaky idea on Russia to ask China provide the fund and make China continuously depend on its Engine.

What China should do is do some hedging. It should develope its own C929 engine in parallel. If Russia refuse to let China to manufacture the engine, then China can stop using them

This is not different than PAK-FA Scam they currently running.
I see your main point for it to be bad (for China) is the engine monopoly by Russia.

However, we know that China is also developing the engine in the same class. If the Russians, with their advanced position, can deliver their engines first making the aircraft entering the market earlier, I see no reason it is bad. At the same time, China is not going to slow down her own effort. After all, Boeing and Airbus both use engines from different vendors, the new Sino-Russo aircraft won't be an exception. Essentially it is the same as AL-31 and WS-10. Nothing to be worried. In the long run, if Russia and China can establish a relationship like Europe and U.S., the engines or anything are just commercial competition without the danger of strategic blockade.

PAK-FA, to be precise FGFA is a totally different story in my opinion, it is between two partners of vast technological gap, one side simply can not bargain.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I see your main point for it to be bad (for China) is the engine monopoly by Russia.

However, we know that China is also developing the engine in the same class. If the Russians, with their advanced position, can deliver their engines first making the aircraft entering the market earlier, I see no reason it is bad. At the same time, China is not going to slow down her own effort. After all, Boeing and Airbus both use engines from different vendors, the new Sino-Russo aircraft won't be an exception. Essentially it is the same as AL-31 and WS-10. Nothing to be worried. In the long run, if Russia and China can establish a relationship like Europe and U.S., the engines or anything are just commercial competition without the danger of strategic blockade.

PAK-FA, to be precise FGFA is a totally different story in my opinion, it is between two partners of vast technological gap, one side simply can not bargain.
Just add one thing, the "hedge" that tidalwave suggested is not a "should do", but a "already ongoing", CJ1000 or anything similar not revealed yet.
 

Brumby

Major
Sofar ARJ 21 has bagged 300 firm order But the main value of the investment is the experience gained from designing, manufacturing, testing and logistic of the FIRST civilian aircraft designed and built in China.
Thanks for your detailed response. I might have misunderstood your statement when you said 200 to 300 units were good enough and you probably misunderstood my question by your reply. In other words, my main question was a financial question whereas you are speaking in qualitative terms. Commercial companies and commercial products are in the business to be profitable. The size of the market and the probable market share it can secure are key business consideration. This then in turn is related to the product development cost that must be recouped and the ongoing cost structure necessary to produce a quality product. In the aviation industry, a key performance indicator is its breakeven point and which I thought that was what you were referring to.

As an example as of 2015, Boeing's B787 is still net cash negative for every plane it sells. The latest 2016 quarterly report seems to suggest that it has reached breakeven on a cash flow basis but industry analysts are questioning its accuracy given that its deferment cost is still growing. Boeing initially estimated it will need to sell 1100 units to breakeven but this has grown to 1300 units. As of 2016, there are $32 Billion in development and deferment cost that are yet to be offset. Take another example, it is estimated that the Airbus A380 will need to sell 420 units to breakeven. Presently, Airbus has sold only 317 units.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Thanks for your detailed response. I might have misunderstood your statement when you said 200 to 300 units were good enough and you probably misunderstood my question by your reply. In other words, my main question was a financial question whereas you are speaking in qualitative terms. Commercial companies and commercial products are in the business to be profitable. The size of the market and the probable market share it can secure are key business consideration. This then in turn is related to the product development cost that must be recouped and the ongoing cost structure necessary to produce a quality product. In the aviation industry, a key performance indicator is its breakeven point and which I thought that was what you were referring to.

As an example as of 2015, Boeing's B787 is still net cash negative for every plane it sells. The latest 2016 quarterly report seems to suggest that it has reached breakeven on a cash flow basis but industry analysts are questioning its accuracy given that its deferment cost is still growing. Boeing initially estimated it will need to sell 1100 units to breakeven but this has grown to 1300 units. As of 2016, there are $32 Billion in development and deferment cost that are yet to be offset. Take another example, it is estimated that the Airbus A380 will need to sell 420 units to breakeven. Presently, Airbus has sold only 317 units.

I am not sure what are you trying to say? AVIC won't make a profit or China can never recoup their investment in ARJ21?
It is ironic that you use Airbus as an example because In the early year Airbus is heavily subsidized by the European government that it become bone of contention and subject to lawsuit by Boeing as unfair trade practice I think the litigation is still pending.

Airbus has one of the lowest operating profit margin and both A 350 and A380 will not make profit for years to come . So the whole airbus operation is carried by A 320 model

AS I say before the process of learning to build passenger aircraft alone is worth the investment. As now they have firm order of 300 But with exploding air travel in China now who knows what the production rate in the future?. Plan is on hand to optimize the ARJ21 even with stretched model and better fuel efficiency.

Not to count the intangible benefit of building ecosystem of component supplier such as engine, avionic, etc which bode well for future expansion civilian aerospace industry in china. Enticing the private sector to enter aerospace industry.

Without flourishing civilian aerospace industry there will be no robust military aerospace That is the predicament that china is in right now. China can built building and machinery fast but training skill technician take a long time

It remind me of the early year of HSR in China with every analyst in the west predict China will never recoup the cost of the infrastructure Guess what it is now profitable and keep expanding at faster and faster rate. Not counting the intangible benefit better inter connectivity, higher value of real estate along the line, relieving the old line for bulk carrier. etc .

So having 300 firm order is icing on the cake and order can keep coming in the future for improved model depending how reliable is ARJ 21
 

Brumby

Major
I am not sure what are you trying to say? AVIC won't make a profit or China can never recoup their investment in ARJ21?
No it would be silly of me to make such claims in the absence of solid data. I was simply asking whether your comments on the 200 to 300 units was a breakeven proposition on the ARJ21 program. Your replies to-date would suggest to me that we are merely talking about different things.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
.
It ain't a good deal unless China get the chance to manufacture jet engine. Russia already said its gonna design the engine and China provides the fund. I have feeling they gonna keep the engine manufacturing in Russia and only let China do the jet body assembly.

If this is the case, it's not a good deal. Then its a Raw Deal.
It's a Very Sneaky idea on Russia to ask China provide the fund and make China continuously depend on its Engine.

What China should do is do some hedging. It should develope its own C929 engine in parallel. If Russia refuse to let China to manufacture the engine, then China can stop using them

This is not different than PAK-FA Scam they currently running.
This is still very early on. It's unlikely that most airlines will pick Russian engine for a brand new widebody aircraft. At the moment, Russia is ahead of China in this area, so I'm sure that China would want to co-design or manufacture the engine. This is entirely different from PAK-FA, since civil airliners involve many suppliers internationally that are not going to be Chinese or Russian.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I am not sure what are you trying to say? AVIC won't make a profit or China can never recoup their investment in ARJ21?
It is ironic that you use Airbus as an example because In the early year Airbus is heavily subsidized by the European government that it become bone of contention and subject to lawsuit by Boeing as unfair trade practice I think the litigation is still pending.

Airbus has one of the lowest operating profit margin and both A 350 and A380 will not make profit for years to come . So the whole airbus operation is carried by A 320 model

AS I say before the process of learning to build passenger aircraft alone is worth the investment. As now they have firm order of 300 But with exploding air travel in China now who knows what the production rate in the future?. Plan is on hand to optimize the ARJ21 even with stretched model and better fuel efficiency.

Not to count the intangible benefit of building ecosystem of component supplier such as engine, avionic, etc which bode well for future expansion civilian aerospace industry in china. Enticing the private sector to enter aerospace industry.

Without flourishing civilian aerospace industry there will be no robust military aerospace That is the predicament that china is in right now. China can built building and machinery fast but training skill technician take a long time

It remind me of the early year of HSR in China with every analyst in the west predict China will never recoup the cost of the infrastructure Guess what it is now profitable and keep expanding at faster and faster rate. Not counting the intangible benefit better inter connectivity, higher value of real estate along the line, relieving the old line for bulk carrier. etc .

So having 300 firm order is icing on the cake and order can keep coming in the future for improved model depending how reliable is ARJ 21
If you actually look at the international market, airlines are moving away from regional jets sized airliners and onto larger airliners. The smallest jets that airlines are now ordering will probably be CS100 or E2 size going forward. Which particular routes in China do you think need something of ARJ-21 size that something like CS100 can't do for greater profit? Remember with expansion in size of air travel, the number of runways and airport slots are going to be more restricted going forward. So airliners are going to use larger planes because they can fill them. Most of the LCCs are ordering planes that can sit from 180 to 240 people. You simply cannot get the same CASM with regional airliners as A321 if an airline can fill all the seats. There is really not a lot of point to stretching ARJ-21, since the need for that really isn't very high anymore. How many airlines are looking for aircraft with 110 seats in single class config. If you stretch ARJ-21 to be able to seat more than 110 people in single class config, you get into the territory of a shrunk version of C919.

As for profit level, every new airliner program looses money in the beginning which it recoups later as it lowers the cost in its mass production. So unless ARJ-21 can sell substantially more, it's going to loose money. I don't think that's a huge problem, since the main focus here should be C919. It's aimed at a much larger market. It's a far more advanced project than ARJ-21. The greatest value of ARJ-21 is the experience that it brings to COMAC in future projects like C919 and C929.
 
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