Chinese air to air missiles

Deino said:

Exactly and therefore my concerns again: The so far seen PL-15 in the J-20 and on the J-11B is IMO too much of an PL-12-development and does not fit to the reported claims in range and capability to the rumoured PL-15. So, I am questioning if the missile in the J-20 and on the J-11B is the PL-15 at all??

This monster-missile in contrast is something new and fits much better to the descriptions and reports of the PL-15 ... so IMO this is the true PL-15 and the missile we saw before is "only" a further development of the PL-12 for internal carriage.

Deino

Click to expand...

The problem is that the "old" PL-15 has been reported as having been tested on J-16, J-20 etc, J-10B/C... so were those tests for the "old" PL-15/crop wing PL-12, or this "new" PL-15/PL-XX?

The way I see it, I think all of the rumours previously ascribed to the "old" PL-15 are still for the old PL-15 (aka AESA seeker, dual pulse motor, 200km range etc), and that the "old" PL-15 is "only" a PL-12 variant... which of course I think we all believed even before this new missile popped up.

OTOH, I think this "new" PL-15/PL-XX is an entirely new weapon that we didn't have any previous rumours for previously, and the fact that it is so big and so large and seemingly with an ImIR seeker as well as using a semi-ballistic trajectory are all things that no previous rumours have mentioned.
I think the sheer newness of it it instead corresponds with the study we have about the semi-ballistic trajectory long range AAM form a little while ago ()... and is described with a >300km range.

Also, a few days ago we had a cryptic "poem" seeming to suggest some kind of new missile was tested:
长剑气如虹，赳赳万古雄。
今朝初饮血，敌首落长空。
鸡塞人声沸，将军笑意浓。
神兵今已利，试问谁争锋？

... and I think that this poem is referring to this "new" PL-15/PL-XX, which may have been successfully tested recently, and is unrelated to the "old" Pl-15/crop wing PL-12 variant.
I think this photo of J-16 with two "new" PL-15s/PL-XXs has been timed to be "released" alongside


In other words, my current belief:

"Old" PL-15/crop wing PL-12 variant: previously tested aboard J-16, J-20, J-10B/C etc, and is associated with the previously rumoured capabilities (AESA dual mode seeker, dual pulse motor, 200km range etc)
"New" PL-15/PL-XX: entirely new, large missile with unique configuraiton and flight profile (semi-ballistic trajectory), with super long range >300km, possibly ImIR guidance in addition to GPS/INS and radar seeker, and may have only been recently tested. Unrelated to "old" PL-15/crop wing PL-12 variant.


Of course, if an insider or big shrimp suggests that the "new" PL-15/PL-XX is actually the same weapon as previous rumours said of the "old" PL-15, then that would change my stance.

edit: one reason I think the "old" PL-15/crop wing PL-12 variant is probably the dual mode aesa/dual pulse motor/200km range missile, is because it should entirely be expected for PL-12 to be developed into a longer range, more capable variant in the same way that AIM-120 was developed to AIM-120D... so all the previous rumours for the "old" PL-15 make complete sense for a PL-12 variant.

On the other hand, this new missile is in an entirely different weight class to PL-12, AIM-120 etc, and seems to strongly suggest it will have the sort of semi-ballistic trajectory (and possibly ImIR seeker too) which is completely different to what the "old" PL-15 rumours said.

The first two chinese characters of that poem 长剑 (chang jian) means "long sword", so could this be a new CJ series cruise missile instead of PL-12/15 or the reentry device?

danielchin said:

The first two chinese characters of that poem 长剑 (chang jian) means "long sword", so could this be a new CJ series cruise missile instead of PL-12/15 or the reentry device?

Click to expand...

I think the use of it in this case is not a direct reference to the literal CJ cruise missile. Rather, in the context of the poem, it is meant to allude to a weapon with significant reach.

That would correspond well with this PL-XX. Also, most interpretations of the poem are pointing it to an A2A context as well..

x post from CDF

here's the full article (from one of the previous posted pictures) in pdf if anyone wants to access it (attached), which talks about a new type of long range AAM, and seems to correspond very closely with this new PL-XX:

-composite seeker of active radar and ImIR for terminal phase (I think this probably confirms that the aperture on the nose is for ImIR seeker), partly for counter stealth role(?)
-GPS/INS guidance with datalinks for midcourse phase
-mentions something called "direct force control" (直接力控制), also called "射流侧向力," which I assume to be something like reaction thrusters? Provide lateral thrust? Sounds kind of like "pif" lateral thrusters used in Aster
-emphasis of importance of joint networking/informationized warfare for this thing to work
-emphasis on use of this missile against high value targets, mentioning AEW&C mostly (including ImIR seeker to identify between high and low value targets)
-emphasis on ECCM

It doesn't explicitly talk about targeting stealth fighters, stealth bombers or carriers that I can see, but it emphasizes the need to attack high value targets. It also talks about how targets of the future will likely be high speed, and stealthy, and thus places greater requirements for missiles, and seems to imply this missile should be capable against them as well(?). It does also directly say that the missile should have high mobility/maneuvrability, as well as very fast flight controls, and of course guidance. And one of the methods for achieving that high mobility is via the aforementioned "direct force control" or what I assume to be reaction thrusters/attitude thrusters.

Using some common sense, I imagine this missile would be useful against targets that are either relatively slow moving like AEW&C or stealth bombers, and possibly fighter aircraft that are not making very extreme maneuvring, as well as of course carriers.


anyone else feel free to correct me, my Chinese reading isn't the best with these kind of technical words.

===

edit: also, a simple picture of what I think some of the key features of the missile are based on picture

looking a little bit back in history...

flateric said:

looking a little bitView attachment 34176 View attachment 34177 View attachment 34178 View attachment 34179 back in history...

Click to expand...

they're pretty similar in terms of configuration, and especially the reaction jet system.

but jdradm was much more of a conventionally sized BVRAAM I think, meant to be integrated in F-22/F-35 as a replacement for AMRAAM.

This missile is quite a bit larger than it. Somewhere between KS-172 and PL-12/AMRAAM/R-77 in size.


not to mention different guidance, and likely flight profile too. i think this new pl-xx is the first bvraam i know of with suspected composite ImIR+radar guidance.

Wasn't there a longer range AAM in the works in China the PL-21 ramjet powered missile. This could be the PL-21. The PL-15 we know may well be an much improved PL-12. Its range is no better than the AIM-120D ie 100km +.

Where do you see ramjet here?

siegecrossbow said:

Does this imply that a flanker variant (J-11D/J-16/J-15) will fulfill the AWAC killer role instead of the J-20?

Click to expand...

I was wandering the same. And if that's true, it can support the thesis the J-20 is more an attack plane than a "pure" fighter.
In the other hand, as an stealth, it can fire closer making the longer range missile less important than in a greater RCS aircraft.

Hi Blitzo, thank you for your detailed analysis. Overall I agree with you that there are two types of missiles: a medium-range AAM carried externally by J-11B and internally by J-20, and this large long-range AAM carried by J-16. The confusion started when both were labeled as PL-15 on the internet. The reason I called the first one a PL-12 variant is because in the past several big shrimps on the Chinese web sites already pointed out the missiles inside the J-20 weapon bay were not PL-15, but a PL-12 variant. However they did not describe what PL-15 really was. That's understandable because at that time no photos of any new type of AAM were available, until yesterday. So, there was an empty slot reserved for PL-15. We needed to fit it with something and now we do have something. Is this big fat sexy baby the real PL-15? Honestly I don't know. I call it PL-15 just for the convenience. Consequently on my web site I will move the old PL-15 entry and combine it with the PL-12 entry. The new AAM will occupy the PL-15 entry, for now, until more details come out to prove it otherwise. The update might take a few more days for the text to settle down. Thanks again for your input!