Chinese 96-A

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
No. MPC now considered ACV 1.1 is a direct replacement for the LAV 25 series, which matches the more conventional scale and size specs. the ACV 1.2 is in the long run intended to replace the AAV's it's final specs have yet to be written. Right now the AAV's are getting a life extension to push them until the ACV1.2 is ready to go.
Second As to cargo, in the mission role of a humanitarian aid mission AAV's are packing in food in the form of MRE's and Water bottles small cargo not huge pallets.
 

shen

Senior Member
No. MPC now considered ACV 1.1 is a direct replacement for the LAV 25 series, which matches the more conventional scale and size specs. the ACV 1.2 is in the long run intended to replace the AAV's it's final specs have yet to be written. Right now the AAV's are getting a life extension to push them until the ACV1.2 is ready to go.
Second As to cargo, in the mission role of a humanitarian aid mission AAV's are packing in food in the form of MRE's and Water bottles small cargo not huge pallets.

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Are you sure about this? According to this article, ACV 1.2 is going to variants of the MPC, not AAV replacement. While ACV 2.0 is most likely going to be some fast boat to carry the MPC to shore. AAV won't get a direct replacement. That's the word on SNAFU's blog and that marine is not happy about it.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
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In what was described as a “drastic shift,” the Marines decided to “resurrect” the MPC in March
2014. The Marines designated the MPC as ACV Increment 1.1 and planned to acquire about 200
vehicles. The Marines also plan to develop ACV Increment 1.2, a tracked, fully amphibious
version, and to acquire about 470 vehicles and fund an ongoing high water speed study. Although
ACV Increment 1.1 will have a swim capability, a connector will be required to get the vehicles
from ship to shore.
Current offerings ACV and MPC were all 8x8 Wheeled platforms The Lockheed Martin Havok based on AMV, BAE SuperRav, and SAIC Terrex

ACV
At present, the Marines use the AAV-7A1 series amphibious assault vehicle to move Marines
from ship to shore. The Marines have used the AAV since 1971 and will continue to use it until
replaced by the ACV or a similar vehicle. Over the years, the Marines claim the AAV has become
increasingly difficult to operate, maintain, and sustain. As weapons technology and threat
capabilities have evolved over the preceding four decades, the AAV—despite upgrades—is
viewed as having capabilities shortfalls in the areas of water and land mobility performance,
lethality, protection, and network capability. The AAV’s two-mile ship-to-shore range is viewed
by many as a significant survivability issue not only for the vehicle itself but also for naval
amphibious forces.
ACV3
The Marines’ 2011 Request for Information (RFI)4
to industry provides an overview of the
operational requirements for the ACV. These requirements include the following:
• The proposed vehicle must be able to self-deploy from amphibious shipping and
deliver a reinforced Marine infantry squad (17 Marines) from a launch distance at
or beyond 12 miles with a speed of not less than 8 knots in seas with 1-foot
significant wave height and must be able to operate in seas up to 3-foot
significant wave height.
If the MPC is to become ACV Increment 1.1, what design changes will be
required to improve the MPC’s amphibious capability as the version previously
under development had limited amphibious capabilities?
• Because ACV Increment 1.1 is connector-dependent, are sufficient connectors
presently available to support amphibious assault operations in the near term?
• Based on the operational concepts put forward in Expeditionary Force 21 which
are heavily dependent on having future, next-generation connectors available, are
amphibious operations involving ACV Increment 1.1 at risk until a sufficient
number of advanced connectors are procured?
• Is high water speed technologically achievable in the near term, or is such a
capability more a function of affordability than technology?
• While DOD’s FY2015 budget request did not contain a program timeline for
ACV Increment 1.2, are there any planning dates for when the vehicle is
expected to enter service?
• What are the total planned procurement targets for ACV Increments 1.1 and 1.2?
Translation The ACV1.1 is the MPC modified, to try and improve Amphibious capasity of the offerings.
ACV1.2 is a future option for a Tracked platform to come on line after 2020 and replace AAV.
ACV2 would take the job of a American equivalent of the Russian PTS-M if ACV1.1 failed to go full amphibian
 

shen

Senior Member
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Current offerings ACV and MPC were all 8x8 Wheeled platforms The Lockheed Martin Havok based on AMV, BAE SuperRav, and SAIC Terrex




Translation The ACV1.1 is the MPC modified, to try and improve Amphibious capasity of the offerings.
ACV1.2 is a future option for a Tracked platform to come on line after 2020 and replace AAV.
ACV2 would take the job of a American equivalent of the Russian PTS-M if ACV1.1 failed to go full amphibian

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well, i don't know what to believe.
 

SteelBird

Colonel
Hi Guys, I think you are going off topic a little bit far (more than one page). Let's get back to the Type-96 before mods step in.

Let me start by asking a simple question; what IF the type-96 gets the engine of the type-99? Does the type-96 have enough room to host that engine?
 

Black Shark

Junior Member
Actually, i do not think so. The russian team should be the cream crop since they are the competition host. Apart from the obvious better chinese FCS, the chinese type 96a also fielded a higher velocity and flatter projectory gun. Not only does these conditions made the chinese tank more accurate, it also mean better penetration.

Actually to conclude from this that the FCS of 96a is better than other tanks is far off since China was the only country that was allowed by russia to use APFSDS training rounds while all the rest had to shoot with HEAT training rounds with far lower velocity and not such a direct trajectory like APFSDS, giving China advantage.

Here is a source:
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По правилам соревнований, стрелять можно только с ходу, остановка запрещена. Мишеней три – на расстоянии 1.600, 1.700 и 1.800 метров. Поднимаются они по одной, последовательность их появления танкистам заранее неизвестна. Снарядов тоже три.
Преимущество здесь только у китайцев, потому что они (согласно договорённости, достигнутой в процессе подготовки соревнований, когда оговаривались условия участия КНР в танковом биатлоне) используют подкалиберный снаряд, у которого дальность прямого выстрела по мишени № 12 «Танк» около 2 км, а начальная скорость полёта - 1.600–1.800 м/с. У всех участников, выступающих на Т-72, – штатный боеприпас со скоростью полёта 860 м/с и дальностью прямого выстрела по этой цели порядка 1.100 м.

Google trans.

Under the rules of the competition, you can only shoot on the move, standing is prohibited. Three targets - at a distance of 1.600, 1.700 and 1.800 meters. They rise to the same sequence of their appearance the tanks is not known beforehand. Three shells too.
The advantage here is only the Chinese, because they (according to the agreement reached in the course of preparation of the competition, when the terms for the participation of China in the tank biathlon) use sabots, whose point-blank range by a target number 12 "Tank" for about 2 km, and the initial airspeed - 1.600-1.800 m / s. All the participants, speakers at the T-72 - Staff ammunition at a speed of flight 860 m / s and a range of direct shot on the target of the order of 1.100 m.


9ea8f5857d59.jpg


Of course ammunition is not the only factor, you can take even one if not the best FCS like on T-90MS which has image processing, auto tracking and can even recognize windows on buildings and seperatley lockon them and engage them with one button, that all means nothing if you do not know how to shoot, the human factor regardless of how well or bad a FCS is plays big role. Like some candidates, slowed down then speeded up and the entire tank started to jerk through the increased speed and while the tank was jerking from that move they fired a shell and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand that with such flaws be it from training or that the crew is nervous or whatever reason it might be, that is will result in the accuracy.

If you really want to know which FCS is better it needs same crew under absolutley same conditions, where the influence of human influence is greatly nullified or at least unified.

Russians did give worse tanks to all other countries who didn't bring their own tanks so you could say it was rigged from the start... specifically modified T-72 B3M for them and a lot worse T-72 variants for everyone else. I can only imagine how primitive FCS the other tanks in competition had.

Yes, other countries teams were allowed to drive around the place before competition, but it doesn't change the fact that Russians did give their team better tank and therefore giving their team better changes to win. Of course ZTZ-96A FCS was probably a surprise to them.

That is not true.
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The official broshure and tank biathlon regulations as followed:

1.
Objectives of the Championship are as follows:
to strengthen military and technical-military cooperation between the countries participating in the Championship;
to increase the prestige of service in the military; to test skills of tank crews and tank units from participating
states
;

to demonstrate combat capabilities (performance) of modern tanks.

The entire biathlon was a tank biathlon with crew and tanks from participating countries and if it was all about unified plattform then NATO countries would not be invided to participate with their tanks, which had boycotted the biathlon over their self created ukraine problem. If this was about unified tank then China would not be allowed to use their 96a but it wasn't.
So countries have been participating with their most modern tank version and the fact that Armenia managed 2nd place despite their T-72B version is the same as any other except of China and Russia proofs that it is not about tank but about skills.

Russians did not gave their team a better tank they gave them the tank their army is using T-72B3 (no such thing as T-72B3M), it would be funny and rigged if they would use T-90MS well that would be really funny.

You can cry about whatever you want but factor that counted the most was the human factor where even some weaker tank crews have gained several points on Stage 3 where physical fittness of the 2 best of both teams per country were send to run over a parcour. Despite being in disadvantage Armenia beat China and was close behind Russia and lot of other countries had gained several points despite being in disadvantage of worse FCS rounds or hp/t ratio.
 
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Lezt

Junior Member
So countries have been participating with their most modern tank version and the fact that Armenia managed 2nd place despite their T-72B version is the same as any other except of China and Russia proofs that it is not about tank but about skills.

Russians did not gave their team a better tank they gave them the tank their army is using T-72B3 (no such thing as T-72B3M), it would be funny and rigged if they would use T-90MS well that would be really funny.

You can cry about whatever you want but factor that counted the most was the human factor where even some weaker tank crews have gained several points on Stage 3 where physical fittness of the 2 best of both teams per country were send to run over a parcour. Despite being in disadvantage Armenia beat China and was close behind Russia and lot of other countries had gained several points despite being in disadvantage of worse FCS rounds or hp/t ratio.

Well, the question is why doesn't the Russians give everyone else who didn't bring their own tank a T-72B3; certainly, they have more than enough T-72B3 to go around. OR alternatively, why didn't they use the regular T-72 whatever it is that they loaned everyone else? Thats the question

I don't think anyone here cares how China placed; but to state the truth that it is a contest skewed towards mobility - and China is to blame for their own "loss" by bringing a weaker engines tank. Hypothetically had the british brought the latest Sabre or the Ukrainians brought the T80U, then they would have an edge in this competition. A 1130 HP engine on a 45 tonne tank is a lot more than a 840 hp 45 tonne tank.

Also, gunnery is not that important in this completion, someone work out the numbers but I don't think the penalty for missing a shot is that great. Russian APERS shells are not that inaccurate with a dispersion of 0.23mil maximum; APFSDS like the 3BM is 0.25mil; i.e. the APERS shell is more accurate. at 1800m; and Russian 6000 mil/circle; dispersion of 0.23mil is.. 1800 X tan(0.23/6000 X 360) = 0.433m diameter for dispersion. The target is ~3m X 2.5m; the APERS shell hitting the target will not be a challenge at all.

The question is about sportsmanship, how would you feel if you go to a sniper competition and the organizer gives you a good old SVD while the host is using a SV-98 and the contest is to hit as many targets at 2000 m without time penalties? It is just bad PR, not a good international show, that it.

//edit

You said HEAT, not APERS, Russian HEAT rounds had a dispersion of 0.21 mil, which is almost best in class, certainly more accurate than APFSDS rounds. We have to remeber that we are hitting stationary targets here, where only shell dispersion matters, not like moving targets which travel time - shell speed - matters.
 
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Black Shark

Junior Member
Well, the question is why doesn't the Russians give everyone else who didn't bring their own tank a T-72B3; certainly, they have more than enough T-72B3 to go around. OR alternatively, why didn't they use the regular T-72 whatever it is that they loaned everyone else? Thats the question

I already explained why, because that is the entire concept of the tank biathlon that Participaiting countries come with their own tanks with their own crew. They did not laon everyone else anything majority came with their own tanks flown in or transported with railway. I already explained it.


I don't think anyone here cares how China placed; but to state the truth that it is a contest skewed towards mobility - and China is to blame for their own "loss" by bringing a weaker engines tank. Hypothetically had the british brought the latest Sabre or the Ukrainians brought the T80U, then they would have an edge in this competition. A 1130 HP engine on a 45 tonne tank is a lot more than a 840 hp 45 tonne tank.

I do think people care about how China fared and the last several pages were all about this tank biathlon.
Never start an argument based on "IF". If my mother had balls she would be my father. No point of arguing in such a manner.


Also, gunnery is not that important in this completion, someone work out the numbers but I don't think the penalty for missing a shot is that great. Russian APERS shells are not that inaccurate with a dispersion of 0.23mil maximum; APFSDS like the 3BM is 0.25mil; i.e. the APERS shell is more accurate. at 1800m; and Russian 6000 mil/circle; dispersion of 0.23mil is.. 1800 X tan(0.23/6000 X 360) = 0.433m diameter for dispersion. The target is ~3m X 2.5m; the APERS shell hitting the target will not be a challenge at all.

Missing of targets were given penalties but could regain the disadvantage in 3rd stage for personal crew parcour running.
How accurate or inaccurate something is irrelevant, all used same ammunition except China they used APFSDS with far higher velocity giving advantage for shorter flight time and more stable during flight, but all others who fired HEAT shells had equal conditions.


The question is about sportsmanship, how would you feel if you go to a sniper competition and the organizer gives you a good old SVD while the host is using a SV-98 and the contest is to hit as many targets at 2000 m without time penalties? It is just bad PR, not a good international show, that it.

Use your brain it was already explained in my last post, go bitch around somewhere else. Armenia did not give much of bitching and they had disadvantage against China,Russia,India and several other countries.

//edit
You said HEAT, not APERS, Russian HEAT rounds had a dispersion of 0.21 mil, which is almost best in class, certainly more accurate than APFSDS rounds. We have to remeber that we are hitting stationary targets here, where only shell dispersion matters, not like moving targets which travel time - shell speed - matters.

HEAT rounds are not more accurate then APFSDS rounds, not on short distance not on long distance. Higher velocity grants more stable flight and flatter trajectory and less time untill impact and exposure towards wind or any other factor which could decrease accuracy.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Firstly this is a bit like NASCAR here in the States. That's because in most cases all the Tanks are more or less Equivalent. Its about the crew not the Tank. That said every participant in this case was offered to bring there own tank. Now why didn't they?
Survey says Money not everyone can afford to ship there own tank. Most smaller nations can't. We know the PRC could and as such they did. They knew what they were doing they knew that they were bringing a weaker tank.but the fact is they chose to bring there own and not there top of line. But then neither did the Russians.
Russia could have rolled the competition with there latest T90. Which has even higher performance specs but by keeping it to T72 variants they kept it even. No one had a super tank on the field. Its about the crew and pride of the soldier... I kinda like that.
NATO has its own tank competition where the member states bring there tanks and top crews. Challenges are a bit different but in terms of gunnery it about even across the board. When it comes to other performance characteristics though some have raw power to spare like the M1A2 others light weight and mobility like the Lecllarc and the Leopard 2 sits as the default. Because of the Diversity you have a different story in terms of performance and pride. The Nato version becomes more about engineering then crew.
 
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