China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

The US can restrict suppliers from delivering any sub-system at any sign of military involvement. Certifications would be rendered meaningless without those western sub-system, while new certifications would not be given out to the aircraft with Chinese sub-systems. When that happens, no one would want the aircraft, and so Chinese aerospace industries still wouldn't get any money. With the life or death of the C919 in US's hands, of course the US would have no problem approving cooperation.

This is why China needs to mandate, if they have not yet done so, that such sub-system be manufactured in China. And for any system that cannot be mandated, a optional local product must be made available. This should not be too difficult with perhaps the exception of the engine. This threat of sanction actually works to China's advantage since it forces China to avoid being too reliant on western suppliers and help elevate Chinese technological development.

This has been the case with the K-8 trainer where the customer can choose between American, Ukrainian or Chinese engine.
 

montyp165

Senior Member
Also, if the US won't allow Chinese planes with Chinese subsystems to be certified, it would be better to just ban US aircraft from Chinese airspace and only allow Airbus instead...
 

jobjed

Captain
Also, if the US won't allow Chinese planes with Chinese subsystems to be certified, it would be better to just ban US aircraft from Chinese airspace and only allow Airbus instead...

Airbus would then have a monopoly of the Chinese market and manipulation of prices would instantly follow. If you're going to ban Boeing, you're going to to have to ban Airbus as well. The dumbest thing for China to do would be to ban one foreign company and letting another monopolise their domestic market. With two foreign companies, at least prices are kept to a reasonable level due to competition.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Firstly, the C919 is full of western sub-systems. Companies form the West gain the most with little benefits left for Chinese aerospace suppliers. The US can also drag its feet on giving the C919 certifications, ensuring the project is a money sink for Chinese aerospace industries. Either way, the US has already ensured little money flow into key Chinese aerospace industries. Secondly, as of now the C919 is still purely a civilian project. The US can restrict suppliers from delivering any sub-system at any sign of military involvement. Certifications would be rendered meaningless without those western sub-system, while new certifications would not be given out to the aircraft with Chinese sub-systems. When that happens, no one would want the aircraft, and so Chinese aerospace industries still wouldn't get any money. With the life or death of the C919 in US's hands, of course the US would have no problem approving cooperation.


It doesn't work that way. An example is shown in
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. China exports aerospace vibration test platforms capable of testing anything up to 50 tons in weight. Yet, the US still embargoes China on platforms that can handle more than 9 tons.

The thing you have to realize is that it isn't about making or losing money. It is about maintaining technological superiority by pinning down China's aerospace technologies, because that technological superiority is related directly to military superiority.

Interesting and well thought out ideas, but I think you are being a little too pessimistic. For one thing, I doubt the various American agencies and companies involved are anywhere as unified in purpose or coordinated to do what you suggest.

The C919 having lots of western subsystems also means western companies have a vested invest in seeing it pass certification.

But in any case, the C919 is more like a by-in, in that China does not expect it to instantly catch up with Airbus and Boeing, it is more of a learning experience and investment for future models by setting up a commercial airline maker, gaining experience and getting a handle of western markets. But even then, western market penetration is very much a distant secondary consideration. The main prize is China's own massive and rapidly growing domestic market.

American and European markets are already mature and saturated with very limited growth potential. That means the bulk of future growth and sales will come from emerging markets, and China's is far and away the biggest. China is investing in airliners because it knows it has huge demand for them, with that demand only going to increase in the future. Right now, all that money is going abroad, but if China has a domestic airliner, even a tiny fraction of the domestic pie would be enough to keep the new company going and give them enough profits to invest in new designs. Once Chinese airliners get good enough, Chinese airlines will buy them because it makes business sense to do so rather than because they were told to. That means bigger sales which in turn should further strengthen the new indigenous airline industry, and you get a snowball, effect going. That is the main goal, but that is at least several generation of airliners and a couple decades down the road from now.

Right now, the C919 is just meant to allow China to get into the game. There isn't, or shouldn't be any great expectation of it taking ! Europe and America by storm. All it needs to do is give solid but unremarkable performance and above all else, not suffer any serious accidents so they can build the brand name and earn the confidence off operators and travellers so there would be no problems with airlines ordering whatever airline China develops next.

America can play games with the C919 certification if they want, but that would be an incredibly stupid and short-sighted thing to do, since China can also play games with its own certification of future Boeing planes or even go as far as to have an unofficial policy favouring Airbus products.

Even a hint of that would have Boeing working hard to make sure the C919 don't get hit by anything that might make the Chinese think the Americans are playing dirty tricks since the Chinese will just take it out on Boeing if that was the case.

China has long mastered now to use western companies' greed to get them to help China achieve its long term goals, and I do not see why it would be different here.
 

Engineer

Major
Also, if the US won't allow Chinese planes with Chinese subsystems to be certified, it would be better to just ban US aircraft from Chinese airspace and only allow Airbus instead...

Well, that's the thing; you can't really do that since there are all those Boeing aircraft currently in service within China. So you can see, for China to get a share of the civilian airliner market, the task is as difficult as scaling a cliff.
 

Engineer

Major
Interesting and well thought out ideas, but I think you are being a little too pessimistic. For one thing, I doubt the various American agencies and companies involved are anywhere as unified in purpose or coordinated to do what you suggest.

Yes. One of the reasons to get those western companies on board is to expedite the certification process, making it less likely for US and Europe to play games. However, for aircraft like the Y-20 where there is no involvement of western companies, there would be little incentive for US to cooperate.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Yes. One of the reasons to get those western companies on board is to expedite the certification process, making it less likely for US and Europe to play games. However, for aircraft like the Y-20 where there is no involvement of western companies, there would be little incentive for US to cooperate.

Using American engines is already an incentives. Seriously, GE Income is from engine only. They do not care, who they sell to as long as its not against US law. If US forbid GE to do that. Roll Royce will come in and GE losing another source of income.
 

MwRYum

Major
Yes. One of the reasons to get those western companies on board is to expedite the certification process, making it less likely for US and Europe to play games. However, for aircraft like the Y-20 where there is no involvement of western companies, there would be little incentive for US to cooperate.

Y-20 is predominately a military project not civil aviation, so the FAA certification is lesser an issue, though things like engine emission standards as well as other communication and avionics could come to play when PLAAF needs to make use of Y-20 in whatever long range international deployment.

And like I've said before, export potential for Y-20 is low, though with its adoption by PLAAF and PLAN aviation branch, and its increased use in long range operations (there's always call for humanitarian efforts and disaster relief, or another civilian evacuation from rapidly destabilizing country) will give Y-20 the international exposure, showcasing the craftsmanship of XAC.
 

Engineer

Major
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. Of special interest is the fact that the chief engineer mentioned the use of 3D printing in the construction of Y-20. Additionally, the Y-20 follows the latest trend by using curved windshields. Being able to manufacture such windshields is itself a technological achievement.
 
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