China's transport, tanker & heavy lift aircraft

Lion said:

I think Russian sold many IL-76 to commercial sector as cargo plane. Many are due to be replaced because of old airframe.

Y-20 will come in handy to compete with Russian IL-476.

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Primary attraction of the Il-476 is the use of PS-90 series engine, which sets to meet modern emission standard, IIRC this is what restricted current Il-76 operations in Europe because current engines failed EU emission standards.

As for competitions in this sector, commercial market for outsized cargo that needs such aircraft is a very niche one, most air cargo are flighted by cargo planes variant of commercial airliners, only when it's something that's too big to fit through even a 747 cargo doors or lifting it up high to load is non-realistic an option then you'd need such planes...typically, when something like that comes along that'd be the job for something in the grade of An-124.

Cargo planes in this weight class and with rough-field capability is primary military market, and since only major armies have such requirement and budget, that further narrows the competition.

That said, most countries who needs such planes are either in good terms with the US and rich enough to buy C-17, or would buy Il-476 if there's a budgeting concern, alas Il-476 have yet reach production phase, even when it does it's the Russian Air Force's contract that it's to satisfy, then comes other buyers.

Would Y-20 fill this gap or break the monopoly of C-17 in this very narrow market? I'd say it'd hardly so, for one unlike C-17 or Il-76 (or Il-476) Y-20 is complete unknown, so for logistical train stability picking either one of those two would be easier sell; then comes the availability of production capability of both Il-476 and Y-20, both have their launch customer's orders lined up, so unless Il-476 faces major hiccup in its production then market shares would slip to Y-20's side. Lastly, potential in commercial sector would really depends on current Il-76's airframe, of how many have clocked their maximum lifespan and slated for retirement in the coming decade.

IL-476, or rather IL-76MD-90A, is in production at Ulyanovsk. The Russian Air Force has ordered 39.

Very difficult to borrow USAF C-17's. That is why a surprising amount of NATO air transport to Afghanistan is done by Russian or Ukrainian IL-76 and AN-124 (or even, in at least one case, AN-225).

MwRYum said:

Primary attraction of the Il-476 is the use of PS-90 series engine, which sets to meet modern emission standard, IIRC this is what restricted current Il-76 operations in Europe because current engines failed EU emission standards.

As for competitions in this sector, commercial market for outsized cargo that needs such aircraft is a very niche one, most air cargo are flighted by cargo planes variant of commercial airliners, only when it's something that's too big to fit through even a 747 cargo doors or lifting it up high to load is non-realistic an option then you'd need such planes...typically, when something like that comes along that'd be the job for something in the grade of An-124.

Cargo planes in this weight class and with rough-field capability is primary military market, and since only major armies have such requirement and budget, that further narrows the competition.

That said, most countries who needs such planes are either in good terms with the US and rich enough to buy C-17, or would buy Il-476 if there's a budgeting concern, alas Il-476 have yet reach production phase, even when it does it's the Russian Air Force's contract that it's to satisfy, then comes other buyers.

Would Y-20 fill this gap or break the monopoly of C-17 in this very narrow market? I'd say it'd hardly so, for one unlike C-17 or Il-76 (or Il-476) Y-20 is complete unknown, so for logistical train stability picking either one of those two would be easier sell; then comes the availability of production capability of both Il-476 and Y-20, both have their launch customer's orders lined up, so unless Il-476 faces major hiccup in its production then market shares would slip to Y-20's side. Lastly, potential in commercial sector would really depends on current Il-76's airframe, of how many have clocked their maximum lifespan and slated for retirement in the coming decade.

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Once WS-20 enter PLAAF service with Y-20, it isn't difficult to request buying American civilian engines for commercial Cargo version to compete in the commercial..

A Chinese air transport company using Y-20 with Chinese engines might well be able to win orders to transport suitable cargoes especially in Asia and Africa.

delft said:

A Chinese air transport company using Y-20 with Chinese engines might well be able to win orders to transport suitable cargoes especially in Asia and Africa.

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On course to a successful test flight . Skepticism notwithstanding they have full confidence in bringing to production Y 20

To all the critic of Chinese engine development. They were starve for funding for a long time . Only now they are adequately funded. The big 3 of GE, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce have been on the roll for a long time due to their work on defense industry and subsidy in research and development by the various defense agency.
So success will come in due time. It is not the question of if but when

Without viable civilian aerospace there is not big enough market for component supplier to invest in advance manufacturing of component . Therefore quality suffer . Now that Civilian aerospace is taking off there is more incentive to invest. Each reinforce the other

Confidence sky-high over jumbo cargo plane
Updated: 2013-03-19 01:37
By ZHAO HUANXIN (China Daily)


Aircraft on course for service after successful test flight, designer says

The country's first jumbo airfreighter is set for take-off into official service, its chief designer said weeks after its successful maiden test flight.

When fitted with Chinese-designed and manufactured engines, the Yun-20, or Transport-20, will have a greater take-off weight, longer fuselage and carry more cargo, said Tang Changhong, who has led the design team of the jumbo aircraft since 2007.

It is currently powered by four Russian-made engines, but these will ultimately be replaced by engines designed and made in China.

It will be in service probably within five years, depending on tests, Tang told China Daily.

The 15-meter-high aircraft underwent a successful test flight on Jan 26.

The Ministry of Defense confirmed shortly after the successful test flight that the Yun-20, mainly developed by the Xi'an Aircraft Industry (Group) Co Ltd, has a load-carrying capacity of 66 metric tons.

It is 47 meters long, has a wingspan of 45 meters and a maximum take-off weight of 200 tons, Xinhua News Agency reported on March 3.

"We are still conducting test flights. They are going well, but more tests have to be carried out before it is put into use," Tang said.

Tang made the remarks on the sidelines of the annual session of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, the country's top political advisory body. The meeting concluded last Tuesday.

Even when it is in service, designers will be carrying out upgrades to improve its performance, he said.

Tang revealed that domestically designed and manufactured engines will be tested during test flights and once they have passed various tests they will power the jumbo airfreighter.

The Chinese engines perform better in terms of fuel efficiency and thrust-weight ratio, he said.

Tang also said that, as is international practice, an aircraft could use several types of engines.

China's largest transporter had been the Yun-8, which has a maximum take-off weight of 61 tons. The Yun-8 debuted in 1975.

The Yun-20 can operate in adverse weather and a range of topographical conditions, Tang said.

"It can serve peace-keeping missions and bring in large quantities of aid for humanitarian missions."

Tang, a graduate of the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, works at the No 1 Aircraft Design Institute under the Aviation Industry Corp of China.

In addition to the institute, at least 1,000 companies or research institutes have been involved in design and production of the jumbo, according to Tang.

The transport plane puts China in an exclusive club of countries and signals an ability to produce homegrown technology to boost its defense capacity, Xinhua reported in January.

"The successful test flight of the Yun-20 marks a milestone in China's aviation industry and we're moving a step closer toward building a strategic air power for the country," the news agency quoted Tang as saying earlier this month.

MwRYum said:

Primary attraction of the Il-476 is the use of PS-90 series engine, which sets to meet modern emission standard, IIRC this is what restricted current Il-76 operations in Europe because current engines failed EU emission standards.

As for competitions in this sector, commercial market for outsized cargo that needs such aircraft is a very niche one, most air cargo are flighted by cargo planes variant of commercial airliners, only when it's something that's too big to fit through even a 747 cargo doors or lifting it up high to load is non-realistic an option then you'd need such planes...typically, when something like that comes along that'd be the job for something in the grade of An-124.

Cargo planes in this weight class and with rough-field capability is primary military market, and since only major armies have such requirement and budget, that further narrows the competition.

That said, most countries who needs such planes are either in good terms with the US and rich enough to buy C-17, or would buy Il-476 if there's a budgeting concern, alas Il-476 have yet reach production phase, even when it does it's the Russian Air Force's contract that it's to satisfy, then comes other buyers.

Would Y-20 fill this gap or break the monopoly of C-17 in this very narrow market? I'd say it'd hardly so, for one unlike C-17 or Il-76 (or Il-476) Y-20 is complete unknown, so for logistical train stability picking either one of those two would be easier sell; then comes the availability of production capability of both Il-476 and Y-20, both have their launch customer's orders lined up, so unless Il-476 faces major hiccup in its production then market shares would slip to Y-20's side. Lastly, potential in commercial sector would really depends on current Il-76's airframe, of how many have clocked their maximum lifespan and slated for retirement in the coming decade.

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reasonable concerns. However I think one of the premise of Y-20 is that China itself is going to need a lot of civilian cargo planes in the future, to further its economic ties with Africa, mid-east and South America. So western lisencing and international market recognition is not the lifeline of Y-20 project. Y-20 project is going to break even if only it's bought by chinese domestic customers. Also, economic influence and product recognition goes hand in hand. For country that has close economic ties with China, they might as well order Y-20 to get on China's good side, maybe chinese would give them some special discount or let them off a debt or two, that's how chinese do bussiness.

Lion said:

Once WS-20 enter PLAAF service with Y-20, it isn't difficult to request buying American civilian engines for commercial Cargo version to compete in the commercial..

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That's just wishful thinking in my opinion. From the US's point of view, doing that is the same as helping Chinese aerospace industry grow. The US will not allow that to happen.

To illustrate, China is very capable in launching satellites into space. Yet, the US prevents any satellite with American components, even if it is just a screw, to be transferred into China for launch.

ahadicow said:

reasonable concerns. However I think one of the premise of Y-20 is that China itself is going to need a lot of civilian cargo planes in the future, to further its economic ties with Africa, mid-east and South America. So western lisencing and international market recognition is not the lifeline of Y-20 project. Y-20 project is going to break even if only it's bought by chinese domestic customers. Also, economic influence and product recognition goes hand in hand.

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I think PLAAF is pretty much Y-20's only customer. Buying dedicated transport aircraft is not the norm, as the civilian sector typically purchase used airliners and convert them for transporting cargo. Not to forget is the fact that a military transport has additional design constrains and is not as efficient as a airliner. So, China's domestic carriers will not likely to be Y-20's customers.

ahadicow said:

For country that has close economic ties with China, they might as well order Y-20 to get on China's good side, maybe chinese would give them some special discount or let them off a debt or two, that's how chinese do bussiness.

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That would be no different than giving the aircraft away.

Engineer said:

That's just wishful thinking in my opinion. From the US's point of view, doing that is the same as helping Chinese aerospace industry grow. The US will not allow that to happen.

To illustrate, China is very capable in launching satellites into space. Yet, the US prevents any satellite with American components, even if it is just a screw, to be transferred into China for launch.

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C-919 can be convert into AWACS but US dont even think twice and approve cooperation by selling engine. Westinghouse easily get approval from US for building nuclear plant for China. K-8 with honeywell engine. Dongfeng humvee fitted with Detriot engine. The worst , the highly black list Norinco by US was approved for selling small arms to the new Iraq armed forces.

If China demonstrated they have working WS-20 engine. I do not see why US will disapprove a money making opportunity which doesn't harm much.

Lion said:

C-919 can be convert into AWACS but US dont even think twice and approve cooperation by selling engine.

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Firstly, the C919 is full of western sub-systems. Companies form the West gain the most with little benefits left for Chinese aerospace suppliers. The US can also drag its feet on giving the C919 certifications, ensuring the project is a money sink for Chinese aerospace industries. Either way, the US has already ensured little money flow into key Chinese aerospace industries. Secondly, as of now the C919 is still purely a civilian project. The US can restrict suppliers from delivering any sub-system at any sign of military involvement. Certifications would be rendered meaningless without those western sub-system, while new certifications would not be given out to the aircraft with Chinese sub-systems. When that happens, no one would want the aircraft, and so Chinese aerospace industries still wouldn't get any money. With the life or death of the C919 in US's hands, of course the US would have no problem approving cooperation.

Lion said:

Westinghouse easily get approval from US for building nuclear plant for China. K-8 with honeywell engine. Dongfeng humvee fitted with Detriot engine. The worst , the highly black list Norinco by US was approved for selling small arms to the new Iraq armed forces.

If China demonstrated they have working WS-20 engine. I do not see why US will disapprove a money making opportunity which doesn't harm much.

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It doesn't work that way. An example is shown in . China exports aerospace vibration test platforms capable of testing anything up to 50 tons in weight. Yet, the US still embargoes China on platforms that can handle more than 9 tons.

The thing you have to realize is that it isn't about making or losing money. It is about maintaining technological superiority by pinning down China's aerospace technologies, because that technological superiority is related directly to military superiority.