China's strategy in Korean peninsula

plawolf said:

So who are we to play god and decide who deserves to rule and who doesn't?

NK under the Kims' is a brutal and often barbaric place (and believe me, I have heard first hand accounts of brutal acts beyond even what is mentioned by the western media), but the same can be said of many other places today like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Myanmar and many others.

Even places like the UK, France, America and China had pretty disgusting phases in their history where horrific things (even by the relative standards of the time) were normalised.

So, either you support a new crusade to unite the entire world under one set of rules and standards, or you are hypocritical for suggesting some regimes need to be toppled, yet others that are just as bad should get a pass because they are useful to you.

Yes, the Kim is awful and the world would be a better place without him in charge, but I dare say most Americans will at least secretly agree the same sentiments apply to Trump. And the cost of trying to remove Kim militarily is unthinkable, which is precisely why he is hell bent on getting nukes and ICBMs, to make that cost even higher.

For him, nothing matters as much as his survival, which is why he would happily see millions of his countrymen starve to death if that is what it takes for him to get a reliable nuclear second strike capability as the ultimate deterrence against regime change.

As distasteful as China find him, China is still bound by treaty and self interest to protect NK from foreign annexation or destruction, because no matter how bad NK is under Kim, it will be a thousand times worse for everyone in the region to have a Libya or Syria situation develop in NK.

Beijing is already within range of NK nuclear missiles, but you don't see the Chinese loosing it over the fact because they know that Kim is not crazy as the western media loves to caricature him.

He is brutal, heartless and above all, incredibly selfish and self serving. Which is why he will not launch a nuclear first strike, because that is the only scenario where he dies screaming in a fireball despite having his precious nukes and ICBMs.

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Well said.

I have gradually lost interest in this subject as all possible points of different sides have been made repeatedly. It's more of nagging. But still, one have to repeat the truth otherwise lies will become "truth", non-sense will become "common sense".

Thank you @plawolf for repeating the truth that I very much share. And I highlight the points that I see as the keys that I would have made too, and I add my thoughts of these points.

• The ones playing god is hypocrite and double standard.
• With numerous examples in front of us, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc., arguing China to help toppling Kim is insanely out of one's mind, not serving Chinese interest at least.
• The Hype of a crazy Kim is just a smoke for propaganda, just like Sadam's WMD, we learned that well.

I suggest everyone look above and beyond NK issue, one would then realize that this is just one piece of a bigger game. NK is only taking the opportunity of easy wind. The matter will not be solved until that game is near a turning point.

AndrewS said:

I don't really see NK wanting reunification with SK at this time. The power disparity is just too large, which means most scenarios result in the end of the Kims.

And one of the key issues is that the US leaving SK, means that SK will fall into a Chinese "sphere of influence". Currently the US is just too wedded to the idea of primacy in the Western Pacific.

And I would discount Russia from the discussions.

They have a population and economy which is some 10x smaller than China, plus Russia's centre of gravity is in Europe, not in the sparsely populated Russian Far East which only shares a tiny land border and has negligible trade relations with NK. Economically, Russia is also roughly 10x smaller than the USA.

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very true. I remember NK was touting reunification in their good times (early 1980s). At that time and before that, NK was actually better off than SK. It is natural that one want to be the lead/dominate force in a "marriage". Look at North and South Yemen, who want to unite and then want to divorce.

I noticed only now (through somebody on Jeff's Facebook)
"Host city , South Korea
9 February (4 months from now)"
etc.:

manqiangrexue said:

I need to amend this so people don't think I'm saying that the Kims aren't greedy or selfish. They are; or they wouldn't live in luxury as their people live in poverty, but I simply mean that they their sense of nationalism prevails over their sense of greed or selfishness and that's why they are factually not sell-outs.

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This is something I disagree with.

I think their sense of greed/selfishness/lust for power outweighs their sense of ethnic/territorial nationalism. That sense of nationalism is supposed to be about the "good of the North Korean people".

Otherwise how can you explain the past 25+ years under the rule of the previous 2 Kims where no reforms were undertaken? Look at the counter example of Vietnam which followed in China's footsteps after the collapse of the USSR. They could see that the only path ahead was reform.

And let's not forget about that this period includes the famine in North Korea, when Kim was too proud to accept foreign aid, even as he knew that this meant his people starving to death.

If they were truly patriots, the Kims would have swallowed their pride to feed their citizens.

AndrewS said:

This is something I disagree with.

I think their sense of greed/selfishness/lust for power outweighs their sense of ethnic/territorial nationalism. That sense of nationalism is supposed to be about the "good of the North Korean people".

Otherwise how can you explain the past 25+ years under the rule of the previous 2 Kims where no reforms were undertaken? Look at the counter example of Vietnam which followed in China's footsteps after the collapse of the USSR. They could see that the only path ahead was reform.

And let's not forget about that this period includes the famine in North Korea, when Kim was too proud to accept foreign aid, even as he knew that this meant his people starving to death.

If they were truly patriots, the Kims would have swallowed their pride to feed their citizens.

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Once again, proud and incompetent, but not greedy enough to be sell-outs. I think we should wrap this up LOL

Trump orders new sanctions to tighten screws on North Korea nuclear program
Updated 34 minutes ago

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this thread because:
"Trump stopped short of going after North Korea’s biggest trading partner, China, and praised its central bank for ordering Chinese banks to stop doing business with North Korea."
and
"Four sources told Reuters China’s central bank has told banks to strictly implement United Nations sanctions against North Korea."

U.S. President Donald Trump ordered new sanctions on Thursday that open the door wider to blacklisting people and entities doing business with North Korea, including its shipping and trade networks, further tightening the screws on Pyongyang’s nuclear and missile program.

Trump stopped short of going after North Korea’s biggest trading partner, China, and praised its central bank for ordering Chinese banks to stop doing business with North Korea.

Pyongyang has resisted international pressure, conducting its sixth and largest nuclear test on Sept. 3, and launching numerous missiles this year, including two intercontinental ballistic missiles and two other rockets that flew over Japan.

“Today I‘m announcing a new executive order, just signed, that significantly expands our authority to target individual companies, financial institutions, that finance and facilitate trade with North Korea,” Trump told reporters ahead of a luncheon meeting with the leaders of Japan and South Korea.

“Our new executive order will cut off sources of revenue that fund North Korea’s efforts to develop the deadliest weapons known to humankind.”

Trump said North Korea’s textiles, fishing, information technology, and manufacturing industries were among those the United States could target.

He said the order enhanced the U.S. Treasury Department’s authority to target those that conduct “significant trade in goods, services or technology with North Korea.”

“For much too long North Korea has been allowed to abuse the international financial system to facilitate funding for its nuclear weapons and missile programs,” Trump said.

Trump did not mention Pyongyang’s oil trade. Four sources told Reuters China’s central bank has told banks to strictly implement United Nations sanctions against North Korea.

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AndrewS said:

I don't really see NK wanting reunification with SK at this time. The power disparity is just too large, which means most scenarios result in the end of the Kims.

And one of the key issues is that the US leaving SK, means that SK will fall into a Chinese "sphere of influence". Currently the US is just too wedded to the idea of primacy in the Western Pacific.

And I would discount Russia from the discussions.

They have a population and economy which is some 10x smaller than China, plus Russia's centre of gravity is in Europe, not in the sparsely populated Russian Far East which only shares a tiny land border and has negligible trade relations with NK. Economically, Russia is also roughly 10x smaller than the USA.

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Reunification has been the purpose of NK ever since US installed Singman Rhee as dictator in the South. SK remained a military dictatorship after the murder of Singman Rhee in 1960 until the late eighties and has since become notionally a democracy but with the US president as Commander-in-Chief of its armed forces until 2015 and with excessive influence of the chaebols, corruption that let to the end of the previous presidency. SK is still a satellite of US while NK is largely independent.
Of course in the end Korea will again be the middle brother between big brother China and little brother Japan as it was many centuries ago.
In the mean time there will need to be an interim period after de departure of US forces of one country two systems during which both parts of Korea can reduce military expenditure to invest in building the roads, rail roads between both and on to China and Russia. Also the gas pipeline from Russia to SK.
Russia has considerable trade with SK and is investing greatly in its Far East so is important in the area.
In this development everyone would be safer and richer but - for the time being - being safer is not important to US.

Well, look like the war of words is really heating up, after 2 weeks of Trump and Kim trying their best to out do each other, NK is taking it to the next level.



Awaiting Trump's next twitte

Technically, NK and America never ended the Korean War, with a state of war still in existence between the two since no peace agreement was every signed (same as China and Taiwan, but western journalists universally and steadfastly refuse to mention it in relation to China and Taiwan, yet often bring it up for Korea).

As such, the latest NK statement is just cheap theatrics that changes nothing substantively.

US wants diplomatic fix for North Korea crisis: Mattis
•September 26, 2017

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North Korea says it is ready to defend itself from attack by the US and has accused President Donald Trump of declaring war against the regime
North Korea says it is ready to defend itself from attack by the US and has accused President Donald Trump of declaring war against the regime (AFP Photo/Ed JONES)
The US wants a diplomatic solution to the North Korean nuclear crisis, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said Tuesday, as China warned there would be "no winners" in a war on the Korean peninsula.

Tensions have soared after Pyongyang claimed the United States had declared war against it and threatened to shoot down US bombers, in an escalating spat between President Donald Trump and the isolated regime.

After the White House took the unusual step of denying it had opened the door to conflict with the nuclear-armed Asian nation, Mattis said Washington's goal was "to solve this diplomatically".

"We maintain the capability to deter North Korea's most dangerous threats but also to back up our diplomats in a manner that keeps this as long as possible in the diplomatic realm," he said in New Delhi after talks with his Indian counterpart.

The Pentagon chief's emphasis on diplomacy comes as Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un traded barbs in the wake of the North's sixth nuclear bomb and multiple missile tests. Pyongyang says it needs the weapons to defend itself against the threat of a US invasion.

The North's Foreign Minister Ri Yong-ho on Monday called a press conference to hit back at a US bomber mission near the North's coastline and a slew of bombastic warnings from the American president.

Taking umbrage at Trump's weekend tweet that North Korea's leadership "won't be around much longer" if it keeps up its threats, Ri told reporters that the international community hoped that a "war of words" would "not turn into real actions".

"However, last weekend, Trump claimed our leadership would not be around much longer," said Ri, who attended this year's UN General Assembly session. "He declared a war on our country."

The White House said Ri's interpretation of Trump's sabre-rattling as "absurd".

Alarm over Pyongyang's nuclear and ballistic missile programmes dominated the gathering of world leaders at the United Nations, amid fears the heated rhetoric could accidentally trigger a war.

China, the North's neighbour and only major ally, warned Tuesday that any conflict would have "no winners".

Foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang told a regular briefing that the rhetorical sparring "will only increase the risk of confrontation and reduce the room for policy manoeuvres".

South Korean President Moon Jae-in cautioned that the security situation on the peninsular was now "more serious than ever", according to the Yonhap news agency.

"We will make North Korea realise that it has no future should it try to face the rest of the world with nukes," he said, though he added there was still a chance for dialogue.

Fears of a clash were sharpened after US bombers flew off the coast of North Korea on Saturday -- going further north of the demilitarised zone than any US aircraft has flown this century.

"Since the United States declared war on our country, we will have every right to take counter-measures including the right to shoot down US strategic bombers even when they are not yet inside the airspace border of our country," Ri said.

"The question of who won't be around much longer will be answered then."

A Pentagon spokesman stressed the bombers flew in international airspace and had every right to do so.

South Korea's National Intelligence Service (NIS) said that while Pyongyang did not appear to have picked up the presence of the US warplanes over the weekend, it had since bolstered its coastal defences.

"North Korea relocated its warplanes and strengthened defences along the east coast," said Lee Cheol-Woo, the chief of the National Assembly's intelligence committee.

- Risk of accidental clash -

As tensions reached fever-pitch, there have been repeated appeals for calm from the United Nations, Russia and China.

South Korea, whose densely-populated capital Seoul is located just 35 miles from the demilitarised zone dividing the Korean peninsula, has also asked the US to take the heat out of the situation.

Foreign Minister Kang Kyung-wha in Washington said it was imperative to "prevent further escalation of tensions or any kind of accidental military clashes which can quickly go out of control".

In his UN address last week, Trump delivered the blunt threat to "totally destroy" North Korea if provoked, deriding leader Kim Jong-un as "Rocket Man".

Kim hit back with a personal attack, branding Trump "mentally deranged" and a "dotard" and warning he would "pay dearly".

In his UN address, Ri warned that Trump's threat to destroy North Korea made "our rockets' visit to the entire US mainland all the more inevitable".

USA just got kim-balled again LOL

USA: No options are off the table. North Korea will face fire and fury. Their regime will be wiped out and their country will be totally destroyed. Talking does not work with North Korea.
North Korea: Well then, sounds like you just declared war! Let's go! Come at me!
USA: Whoa, that's absurd! That's crazy! War? What? We are not opening the door to conflict and we will solve this diplomatically. You guys are just... absurd.