China's strategy in Korean peninsula

Flying_Fortress said:

The latest U.N. vote against the U.S. was just a symboic vote, about the location of an embassy. China has defied U.N. sanctions against NK for years. And you say im not versed on Basic International Norms? Wake up & smell the coffee. PLA wolfe was trolling,flaming and calling for my suspension - stop readin


You seriously have no idea how the world finacial system works. The Federal Reserve buys up most of the U.S. debt, same with the bank of Japan, the Bank of CHINA..selling bonds to its self is how EVERY COUNTRY SURVIVES.

If China couldnt buy up province debt by just rolling it over into national debt every province would have slit its own neck AGES AGO. Countries, states, and provinces run something called a DEFICIET. My god you are a newb..

U.S. debt is the gold standard regardless of the interest level, it has nothing to do with R&D. If the U.S. defaults on its bonds, its Earth Shattering.

China defaulting would not really be a big deal, because CHINA owns all of its debt, and everyone knows the official figures on all things China are just made up to save face / brag.

I have no doubt U.S. financial figures are somewhat distorted, and I equally have no doubt China's financial figures are completly distorted and made up.

Click to expand...

You seriously think that everyone here doesn't know what they're talking about but you do? Hilarious

That's right, you're not versed in international norms, which is why you say stupid things like "double talk" and "allegiance to the UN." LOL And birds go tweet. Oh, the US and China aren't really friends!? Revelation! Just for you LOL UN can sanction whoever they want and whoever wants to follow it can.

Your summary has nothing to do with what we were talking about. Writing an unrelated big picture high school intro to macroeconomics summary is not gonna cover up how wrong you were, how you don't understand proof of burden, or how you constantly drift between just your opinion and trying to insinuate that something is fact. And the only people who call other people "newbs" are gamers in their moms' basements. Here, we refer to people like you as ignorant, wrong, and will set up straw man arguments to attempt to cover your own stupidity. But it won't work because we remember what you were saying and it had nothing to do with countries buying their own debt. See? Higher level than "newb."

Yeah, if the US defaults on its bonds, its a little "earth shattering" but mostly, it's US-shattering LOL. And that's exactly my point. The US has sold so many of its bonds to other countries that it relies on that as a source of income to keep itself moving. If it doesn't sell and misses out on that income, throat slit. Maybe the jugular's still intact, but still bleeding badly. Then, if it defaults, no one will ever trust US bonds, promises, or currency again. Decapitated.

US debt has nothing to do with R&D because you MIXED 2 things up!! The R&D I was discussing is if the US refuses to sell its tech (such as instruments for making semiconductors, which is what I assumed you meant by investment instruments), that money it would have earned would go to its competitors, which would use it for R&D to surpass the US.

Actually, you are right when you said that China's numbers are distorted, but not in the way you thought from reading Gordon Chang articles. On the whole, China's figures are distorted downwards to appear less threatening and also so China's held responsible for less world aid. Gonna ask me how I know that, huh? Ain't gonna tell ya. You just keep reading Gordon Chang.

And China has defied Western expert's predictions of doom. How does that happen if Western experts know everything that goes on in China? Maybe because they don't know what's going on in China? Remember after the 2008 Western financial crisis struck it was revealed that the US was actually in a recession for over a year before. That's called faking US growth figures saying it was in positive growth when it was really in negative territory while telling the world everything was well.

I'm going to bring up again because it's such a good story of famed Western economics expert Noriel Rubini who declared in an article China was headed for disaster because when he flew into China and took a ride on China's expensive maglev train from Shanghai to Hangzhou, he was the only one on the train meaning it was a big expensive money pit for China and no one was using it. Yeah, I'm sure Noriel Rubini was the only one on board because there is no maglev route between Shanghai and Hangzhou. One of the West's foremost economics expert lied.

OK OK OK Finally NK starts to realize that pointing its gun at its own brother only feeds its enemy. Single out the outside troublemaker that wishes to divide your family!



North Korea Says Nuclear Weapons Only Target U.S., Not Russia, China or South Korea As Talks Begin
•January 9, 2018

North Korea emphasized Tuesday that the U.S. was the only potential target of supreme leader Kim Jong Un's growing nuclear and ballistic arsenal, not its southern rival or other regional powers seeking talks with the secretive, authoritarian state.

In his New Year's Day speech last week, Kim vowed to continue developing weapons of mass destruction and missiles capable of delivering them to targets across the globe. He also emphasized, however, that he would reopen talks with South Korea, the U.S.-backed neighbor with which North Korea has technically remained at war since . As the dialogue officially began Tuesday, North Korean officials said their nuclear weapons were not up for debate because it was only Seoul's foreign sponsor that had to worry.

"North Korea's weapons are only aimed at the United States, not our brethren, China or Russia," North Korean delegation head Ri Son Gwon said according to .

This picture taken on December 13, 2017 and released from North Korea's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) on December 14, 2017 shows the ceremonial performances by the chorus and orchestra for the participants of the 8th Munitions Industry Conference at Ryugyong Chung Ju Yung Gymnasium in Pyongyang. North Korea celebrated a year of historic missiles launches and a hydrogen bomb test, achieving what it called a credible deterrent against U.S. invasion.

Kim's sudden decision to renew Korean Peninsula peace talks for the first time in two years came after for North Korea's . Despite President Donald Trump vowing to prevent any North Korean intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) launches as he came into office almost exactly one year ago, Kim managed to oversee two debut launches in July, as well as a hydrogen bomb test in September. North Korea conducted its latest and highest-reaching ICBM test in late November and officially declared itself a nuclear state.

These developments have come amid tightening international sanctions and mounting from the U.S., which has in the tense region. Trump tweeted Thursday that "talks are a good thing" and even took credit for the initiative, but U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley said the day earlier that the U.S. "won't take any of the talks seriously if they don't do something to ban all nuclear weapons in North Korea."

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson initially said last month the U.S. would meet "," but later clarified that North Korea would have to first abandon nuclear weapons and ICBM tests after the White House intervened. North Korea has claimed the right to develop such weapons in order deter a potential U.S. invasion, pointing to similar circumstances in .

China and Russia also backed U.N. Security Council sanctions over Kim's stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, but also and its hardline stance against their mutual neighbor. Both have urged Trump to de-escalate the crisis instead of pursuing military drills, which for the length of the upcoming Winter Olympic games.

The latest round of inter-Korea talks first centered on the participation of North Korean athletes in next month's Winter Olympics to be held in Cheongyang, South Korea. Last week, and, by Tuesday, Pyongyang agreed to reconnect a military hotline, accepting Seoul's offer to enter into joint military talks.

"This meeting takes on significance in terms of restoring and developing inter-Korean ties. The two sides shared the need to upgrade our ties based on mutual respect," South Korean Unification Minister and chief delegate Cho Myoung-gyon told reporters at the truce village in Panmunjom, according to the official .

"South-North ties took their first step. As they have been strained for a long time, there are a lot tasks to do," he added.

manqiangrexue said:

OK OK OK Finally NK starts to realize that pointing its gun at its own brother only feeds its enemy. Single out the outside troublemaker that wishes to divide your family!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

North Korea Says Nuclear Weapons Only Target U.S., Not Russia, China or South Korea As Talks Begin

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

•January 9, 2018

Click to expand...

This answers very well the following two noises.

1. Many SK and Americans medias and people trying relentlessly to fool Chinese into jumping on the "regime change" war wagon.
2. Many brain-damaged Chinese echoing such non-sense, eagerly to topple NK before SK and USA do.

I did and still do seriously think the 2nd are not stupid but rather sitting on the wrong chair.

taxiya said:

This answers very well the following two noises.

1. Many SK and Americans medias and people trying relentlessly to fool Chinese into jumping on the "regime change" war wagon.
2. Many brain-damaged Chinese echoing such non-sense, eagerly to topple NK before SK and USA do.

I did and still do seriously think the 2nd are not stupid but rather sitting on the wrong chair.

Click to expand...

HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY! I said the second thing! LOLOL

Man if NK doesn't behave when China, the hand that feeds it, tells it to behave, instead causing trouble when China wants calm, then I'm all for taking them over. It needs to be smart and move together with China to achieve our objective of an Asia without Western military presence and a unified Korea under that principle. That is the glue that bonds our brotherhood, not NK acting like a rabid dog against its own family in the south while China tries to calm it down.

But if Kim wises up, stops playing into Washington's hand by threatening to turn Seoul into "a sea of fire," knows how to be a strategic ally of China, then Rocket man deserves to stick around and be protected by the PRC's armed forces.

I think this statement was very smart by Kim. Notify the world that NK's nukes are for defense and are of no threat to anyone except the country relentlessly threatening to attack and invade it (and positioning itself to do so as well). Single the US out and prove false America's claim that NK is a threat to the world (and the false argument that America's problems are everyone's problems so everyone needs to help solve them). Make it clear to SK that it is not the target, but the parasite inside it.

manqiangrexue said:

HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY! I said the second thing! LOLOL

Man if NK doesn't behave when China, the hand that feeds it, tells it to behave, instead causing trouble when China wants calm, then I'm all for taking them over. It needs to be smart and move together with China to achieve our objective of an Asia without Western military presence and a unified Korea under that principle. That is the glue that bonds our brotherhood, not NK acting like a rabid dog against its own family in the south while China tries to calm it down.

But if Kim wises up, stops playing into Washington's hand by threatening to turn Seoul into "a sea of fire," knows how to be a strategic ally of China, then Rocket man deserves to stick around and be protected by the PRC's armed forces.

I think this statement was very smart by Kim. Notify the world that NK's nukes are for defense and are of no threat to anyone except the country relentlessly threatening to attack and invade it (and positioning itself to do so as well). Single the US out and prove false America's claim that NK is a threat to the world (and the false argument that America's problems are everyone's problems so everyone needs to help solve them). Make it clear to SK that it is not the target, but the parasite inside it.

Click to expand...

NK will always act in its own best interests, or rather, the best interests of Kim Jong Un. Regime change is an option, but a terrible one as shown by Afghanistan and Iraq. Diplomacy may be slower and sometimes frustrating, but it is still far preferable to war.

For China, the paramount objective is stability. NK's political antics, while worrisome, is still secondary.

manqiangrexue said:

HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY! I said the second thing! LOLOL

Man if NK doesn't behave when China, the hand that feeds it, tells it to behave, instead causing trouble when China wants calm, then I'm all for taking them over. It needs to be smart and move together with China to achieve our objective of an Asia without Western military presence and a unified Korea under that principle. That is the glue that bonds our brotherhood, not NK acting like a rabid dog against its own family in the south while China tries to calm it down.

But if Kim wises up, stops playing into Washington's hand by threatening to turn Seoul into "a sea of fire," knows how to be a strategic ally of China, then Rocket man deserves to stick around and be protected by the PRC's armed forces.

I think this statement was very smart by Kim. Notify the world that NK's nukes are for defense and are of no threat to anyone except the country relentlessly threatening to attack and invade it (and positioning itself to do so as well). Single the US out and prove false America's claim that NK is a threat to the world (and the false argument that America's problems are everyone's problems so everyone needs to help solve them). Make it clear to SK that it is not the target, but the parasite inside it.

Click to expand...

haha, you are brave to own it up. But I was not pointing at you, to be honest I was not aware of your position on this until now.

To clarify my post about "brain damaged Chinese", (sorry for that wording), I am focused on people who took ONLY the perspective of SK and USA, ignoring NK's legitimate security concern, to which you don't seem to belong to. There were only two in this thread whom I had questioned their motivation in my post in the past. You can find it if you dig back some months.

Back on topic, I admit that you and I have a disagreement. In general I disapprove "regime change" on principle. If I have to have my hands bloody, it has to be about China's life and death, only that can justify a forceful act upon other country, a self-defense. My definition of self-defense is very strict, I shoot when I am shot at.

On the issue of SK's security (threat from NK), I do agree that China should provide some guarantee in the same scale like what China provided to NK. That should be clear to both sides. With that in place, it is up to the two Koreas to decide how they want their future to be.

taxiya said:

Back on topic, I admit that you and I have a disagreement. In general I disapprove "regime change" on principle. If I have to have my hands bloody, it has to be about China's life and death, only that can justify a forceful act upon other country, a self-defense. My definition of self-defense is very strict, I shoot when I am shot at.

Click to expand...

I think there is a need to be more proactive than that. If you only move when you're blood is about to be spilled, it might be too late, or you might at best, save your own hide while sacrificing your interests. When you see the chips are being lined up to surround and choke you, it's best to act right when those chips are moving rather than when you're choked, at which point your choices will be unsavory at best. If China refuses to use force and as a result, the US takes over Korea, invades Pakistan (not saying it will happen, just an example), maybe even disarms and then woes Russia, then by the time China needs to defend itself, it will be badly surrounded. The way I see it, if you see the US trying to swipe Korea, stand and be ready to fight, as we did in 1950. If the US goes after Pakistan, arm and train them; if the fails, fight for them. If Russia's baited into a fight in Eastern Europe and looks like it can't hang in there, sign a security pact and send our troops. We can't afford to lose this big bear of an ally. If we take self-defense as strictly as you do, the US will be emboldened to take down our allies and set up obstacles for us one by one. If we stand strong and ready to defend everything, then we lose nothing.

Yes. I realize this is how large scale global conflicts start but I'd rather start a gang fight than wait for the other gang to take down all my friends and corner me for a 15 vs 1 beat-down.

manqiangrexue said:

I think there is a need to be more proactive than that. If you only move when you're blood is about to be spilled, it might be too late, or you might at best, save your own hide while sacrificing your interests. When you see the chips are being lined up to surround and choke you, it's best to act right when those chips are moving rather than when you're choked, at which point your choices will be unsavory at best. If China refuses to use force and as a result, the US takes over Korea, invades Pakistan (not saying it will happen, just an example), maybe even disarms and then woes Russia, then by the time China needs to defend itself, it will be badly surrounded. The way I see it, if you see the US trying to swipe Korea, stand and be ready to fight, as we did in 1950. If the US goes after Pakistan, arm and train them; if the fails, fight for them. If Russia's baited into a fight in Eastern Europe and looks like it can't hang in there, sign a security pact and send our troops. We can't afford to lose this big bear of an ally. If we take self-defense as strictly as you do, the US will be emboldened to take down our allies and set up obstacles for us one by one. If we stand strong and ready to defend everything, then we lose nothing.

Click to expand...

My "passiveness" was only referring to "China proactively act upon NK" (China initiate regime change in NK). But I will proactively respond in case of NK or Pakistan was touched (physically) by US, or Russia was squeezed to crumble. In the later cases, China should get in before any shots are fired. I am only against the American style of "preemptive self-defense" just to change some country to their like.

taxiya said:

My "passiveness" was only referring to "China proactively act upon NK" (China initiate regime change in NK). But I will proactively respond in case of NK or Pakistan was touched by US, or Russia was squeezed to crumble. In the later cases, China should get in before any shots are fired. I am only against the American style of "preemptive self-defense" just to change some country to their like.

Click to expand...

OK, good to hear. But if it became apparent that the US was ready to invade NK and unify the Koreas by force under the US due to a military provocation by Kim (such as the Cheonan sinking), then the best plan is proactive regime change. If NK became indefensible because of their actions, (and considering China's growing strength, it's a strategic decision to push any direct confrontation with the US into the future,) then the only/best way to secure the northern peninsula is to take it from Kim before the US can do so, because they absolutely will.

Of course, if Kim comes to his senses, stops threatening SK, and starts to act reasonably to justify its nuclear weapons (which, quite frankly, are really really easy to justify; all you have to do is say, "They are for defense from that lunatic threatening me" instead of "Here is a list of all the countries that I'd like to engulf in a sea of fire with my nukes.") and isolate the US as the trouble maker, I'd be happy to back this ally.