China's Space Program Thread II

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Moreover, other than communication and surveillence, what else can you do with satellites?
If orbital anti-missile technology like Brilliant Pebbles becomes a reality, I will be laughing hard. Funny enough, it's probably a dismissive attitude like yours that caused China to ignore their rocket technology for so long. From how China reacted to SpaceX and Starlink, I don't think that they would have ignored rocket development for so long if they viewed it as such a priority for national security
You call this not catching up?
I would call SpaceX outlaunching China 20 times over to be falling behind, that's for sure. Let's just look at China's own development plans, a dozen F9 and FH clones, a Starship clone, Starlink clones, even new infrastructural projects like the Wenchang commercial launch site wouldn't have been build without the influence of SpaceX. Doesn't feel like China is "catching up" when you have this embarrassing display of copying. Again, they had 20 years to catch up and they didn't, they pissed 20 years away with nothing to show for it.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
If you look at the history of rocket development, there was a period of around 20 years from the early 1990s to the mid 2010s where rocket development stalled out and hit a brick wall, because the two leading space superpowers at that time America and the Soviet union/Russia were basically constantly shooting themselves in the foot.

America had issues with the space shuttle- the Columbia/challenger disasters, leadership issues at NASA due to said disasters, the fall of the soviet union meant that there was no one to challenge in a dick measuring contest anymore, which resulted in a constantly shrinking budget and no clear long term plan which resulted in various cancelled rockets and the over budget jobs program that was the SLS. Meanwhile the soviet union fucking collapsed... And Russia has been on a downward spiral ever since. Not to mention that the soviet union collapsing meant that China snatched up a bunch of ex-soviet rocket engineers and rocket technology transfers.

This was a once in a century opportunity where the two global leaders in a such a crucial technology basically stopped development for 20 years and nobody else really stepped in to fill the vacuum until SpaceX. And China completely wasted it. If China was smart, they could have used this 20 years to modernize and catch up to the cutting edge, start taking over the global launch market, establish themselves as the leaders in space. Instead of using this once in a lifetime opportunity to catch up fast, China instead stuck her head in the sand and started huffing hydrazine fumes while jerking off with the same 20 year rocket designs until SpaceX smashed past the brick wall and got the field moving again.
During this 20 years as you said, SpaceX developed ONE engine the Merlin (a tech that has been around since the 1950s) and one rocket. Raptor was something started from 2012 outside of the 20 year time frame. In the mean time you choose to be blind in what China was doing as other member has pointed out, especially worth to mention YF-100 is an engine (Oxidizer rich staged combustion) that is more technically advanced than Merlin, something that US is still not able to make or has not made (RS-84 similar to YF-130), or the failed attemp to copy the Russian RD-180.
China has fallen wayyyy behind and it's embrassing itself by smashing hypergolic rockets onto villages, but it's really all it's own fault. Can you imagine any other important techologny field being stagnant for 20 years, say in semiconductors or A.I or biology and China just gave up on trying to catch up to the cutting edge? Now that rockets is in an active state of development again and a moving target, I wonder how much further China will fall behind. They couldn't catch up in a field that stagnated for decades, there's no way that the country can move at the pace that SpaceX is moving at.
On the contrary, you have fallen way behind the reality and should be embarrassed by your astonishing show of ignorance. BTW, I suppose you wanted to say "embarrassing" instead of "embrassing", or you wanted to say "embracing".
I don't like the saying that "China cannot innovate and can only steal/copy" but it's basically true here. Imagine getting 20 years to catch up, doing nothing noteworthy in that 20 years and suddenly going lightspeed copying everything that SpaceX does once China realizes how important reusable rockets is.
I resisted a long time to say but now have to say that you are just here trolling or a SpaceX fanboy considering your disconnection to reality, lack of understanding of technology, lack of drive and capability to learn and study, and blantant and repeated (from reading your posts throughout this forum) politicizing technical subjects.
 
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gpt

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't like the saying that "China cannot innovate and can only steal/copy" but it's basically true here. Imagine getting 20 years to catch up, doing nothing noteworthy in that 20 years and suddenly going lightspeed copying everything that SpaceX does once China realizes how important reusable rockets is.
You're overestimating China's capabilities, especially in those early years. The industrial base was poor and lacked the tools and experience to fabricate exotic materials (really the key behind most space and military technologies), advanced rocket engines and avionics. The US can do Saturn V even in 1969 because that is really just how strong their fundamentals were even back then. You need to look at the machines that build the machines and also under the hood stuff. China really lacked that sort of expertise. It takes decades and decades to develop that sort of capability and experience. There's quite literally no way other than the incremental path (which unfortunately means real novel technologies that other people don't have).

Agree with the second part of your rant though. CZ3B -> CZ5 development was indeed very slow. There is an institutional problem in R&D and operations in the Chinese aerospace system that they're slowly acknowledging

Interesting read from CASC:
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If orbital anti-missile technology like Brilliant Pebbles becomes a reality
There is every indication this will become a reality despite what some on this website say, so I share your concerns here.
 

gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
For what it's worth Blue Origin's BE-4 engine in the Vulcan rocket does use oxidizer rich staged combustion. But because it is a LOX/Methane engine this is much easier to do. BE-4 does not match the chamber pressure of the RD-180 either. The RD-180 operates at twice the chamber pressure.

US BE-4 operates at 13 MPa pressure. China YF-100 at 18 MPa pressure. And the Russian RD-180 operates at 27 MPa.
 

Engineer

Major
If you look at the history of rocket development, there was a period of around 20 years from the early 1990s to the mid 2010s where rocket development stalled out and hit a brick wall, because the two leading space superpowers at that time America and the Soviet union/Russia were basically constantly shooting themselves in the foot.

America had issues with the space shuttle- the Columbia/challenger disasters, leadership issues at NASA due to said disasters, the fall of the soviet union meant that there was no one to challenge in a dick measuring contest anymore, which resulted in a constantly shrinking budget and no clear long term plan which resulted in various cancelled rockets and the over budget jobs program that was the SLS. Meanwhile the soviet union fucking collapsed... And Russia has been on a downward spiral ever since. Not to mention that the soviet union collapsing meant that China snatched up a bunch of ex-soviet rocket engineers and rocket technology transfers.

This was a once in a century opportunity where the two global leaders in a such a crucial technology basically stopped development for 20 years and nobody else really stepped in to fill the vacuum until SpaceX. And China completely wasted it. If China was smart, they could have used this 20 years to modernize and catch up to the cutting edge, start taking over the global launch market, establish themselves as the leaders in space. Instead of using this once in a lifetime opportunity to catch up fast, China instead stuck her head in the sand and started huffing hydrazine fumes while jerking off with the same 20 year rocket designs until SpaceX smashed past the brick wall and got the field moving again.

China has fallen wayyyy behind and it's embrassing itself by smashing hypergolic rockets onto villages, but it's rally all it's own fault. Can you imagine any other important techologny field being stagnant for 20 years, say in semiconductors or A.I or biology and China just gave up on trying to catch up to the cutting edge? Now that rockets is in an active state of development again and a moving target, I wonder how much further China will fall behind. They couldn't catch up in a field that stagnated for decades, there's no way that the country can move at the pace that SpaceX is moving at.

I don't like the saying that "China cannot innovate and can only steal/copy" but it's basically true here. Imagine getting 20 years to catch up, doing nothing noteworthy in that 20 years and suddenly going lightspeed copying everything that SpaceX does once China realizes how important reusable rockets is.
"Hypergolic is so yesterday" they said.
"Let's phase it out" they said.

You think if the rockets don't use hypoerglic then they won't smash onto villages? Give me a break! Space X rockets also fell down on people's properties in the past. This is a launch location problem, not a rocket design problem. The grandiose idea to phase out hyperbolic is the dumb-dumb decision here. Had support for hyperbolic rockets been built at Wenchang, all of the launches from Xichang could have been moved and this debris problem could have been avoided.

And let's not forget why Xichang was built in the first place. Here's a hint: the US has a lot to do with it.

And I don't know what parallel universe you are from, but there was no "once in a century opportunity" for China to be a global leader in rocket technology. None whatsoever. China was bar from the international launch market, budget was tight up until the 2010's, and there were a lot of more important projects for China to catch up on. Hyperbolic rockets are cheap, reliable, and share the same supply chain as China's ICBMs. There was little sense to splurge money that doesn't exist to change something that works. Also, if in mid 2020's China still has enough trouble increasing the number of launches from Wenchang, such project would certainly have flopped 30 years earlier.
 

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
You think if the rockets don't use hypoerglic then they won't smash onto villages? Give me a break! Space X rockets also fell down on people's properties in the past. This is a launch location problem, not a rocket design problem. The grandiose idea to phase out hyperbolic is the dumb-dumb decision here. Had support for hyperbolic rockets been built at Wenchang, all of the launches from Xichang could have been moved and this debris problem could have been avoided.
Even infrastructure like the Wenchang commercial launch site won't exist if it wasn't for China copying SpaceX. Imagine if China actually bothered to build coastal launch sites 20 years ago, instead of when they were forced to copy SpaceX. When they ignored rockets, they also ignored the launch infrastructure. There's lots of other bullshit here of course. Let's look at how accurate SpaceX is aiming their rockets for a landing, imagine if China actually perfected guiding spent rocket boosters using grid fins or parachutes onto specific spots because of their inland launch sites. Instead, China didn't give a shit and only started putting parachutes and grid fins onto spent booster stages for more controlled landings after 2016, I wonder why?

Anyway, dropping rocket boosters onto villagers is bad. Dropping toxic rocket boosters is worse. I wouldn't want to be kicked in the balls, but I would take it over being stabbed in the neck.
And I don't know what parallel universe you are from, but there was no "once in a century opportunity" for China to be a global leader in rocket technology. None whatsoever. China was bar from the international launch market, budget was tight up until the 2010's, and there were a lot of more important projects for China to catch up on.
This would be believable if the soviet union wasn't the global leader in rocket technology for decades. They were a industrial superpower, but that's really about it. They had their fair share of famines, the average pleasant was poor as fuck, the government was also poor as fuck, the government was corrupt, they were battered and bruised from WWII and they still had some of the best rocket engines around. Oh and they were also barred from the Western launch market. What excuses does 1990s-2010s China have that the soviet union during the 1950s-1980s didn't?

Again, the collapse of the soviet union and the subsequent stagnation of the American rocket industry was a once in a century opportunity for China. Don't deny facts here. How often is a "friendly" neighboring space superpower gonna crumble into pieces and allow you to copy all their technology, while the other global space superpower bumbles their way into a cancelled rocket after cancelled rocket, for 20 years straight. America literally lost access to human spaceflight for like a decade, that's how fucking bad the situation was in America was. This of course happens every year right?
There was little sense to splurge money that doesn't exist to change something that works.
And that's how you fall behind in technology. Everything works just fine in a vacuum. Bows and arrows work fine until someone sails into your country with guns and demands you join the empire. Expandable rockets work fine until a certain company comes in and starts launching more payload then the rest of the world combined 10 times over.
You're overestimating China's capabilities, especially in those early years. The industrial base was poor and lacked the tools and experience to fabricate exotic materials (really the key behind most space and military technologies), advanced rocket engines and avionics.
Explain the soviet union's lead in rocket engine then? They had the same issues that China faced, large uneducated pleasant population, very poor- both per capita and total economy wise, took a massive beating in WW1 and WW2 and even faced their own fair share of massive famines. Really, the only thing that they had going for them was them being a industrial powerhouse, almost like a certain other country.

This is 1990s China vs 1960s America and Soviet union, not 1960s China. They were designing rockets with slide rulers and pen and paper in the 60s. Basic electronics were barely a thing back then. Trying to compare the two is just embarrassing.
(a tech that has been around since the 1950s
Which makes it worse that China cannot modernise her rocket fleet even in 2024.
In the mean time you choose to be blind in what China was doing as other member has pointed out, especially worth to mention YF-100 is an engine (Oxidizer rich staged combustion) that is more technically advanced than Merlin,
Then explain how SpaceX is launching around 80 times a year while China is launching rocket equipped with the YF-100 around 4 times a year.
 
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Engineer

Major
Even infrastructure like the Wenchang commercial launch site won't exist if it wasn't for China copying SpaceX. Imagine if China actually bothered to build coastal launch sites 20 years ago, instead of when they were forced to copy SpaceX.
There was no demand 20 years ago.

When they ignored rockets, they also ignored the launch infrastructure. There's lots of other bullshit here of course. Let's look at how accurate SpaceX is aiming their rockets for a landing, imagine if China actually perfected guiding spent rocket boosters using grid fins or parachutes onto specific spots because of their inland launch sites. Instead, China didn't give a shit and only started putting parachutes and grid fins onto spent booster stages for more controlled landings after 2016, I wonder why?

Anyway, dropping rocket boosters onto villagers is bad. Dropping toxic rocket boosters is worse. I wouldn't want to be kicked in the balls, but I would take it over being stabbed in the neck.
Again, this is a launch site problem. Switching fuel doesn't magically make the debris problem disappear. It is not an argument against hypergolic. Quite the opposite, phasing out hypergolic is what led to the debris problem well into the 2020's.

This would be believable if the soviet union wasn't the global leader in rocket technology for decades. They were a industrial superpower, but that's really about it. They had their fair share of famines, the average pleasant was poor as fuck, the government was also poor as fuck, the government was corrupt, they were battered and bruised from WWII and they still had some of the best rocket engines around. Oh and they were also barred from the Western launch market. What excuses does 1990s-2010s China have that the soviet union during the 1950s-1980s didn't?
Where is the Soviet Union now? In the dust bin of history. Soviet Union showed China what not to do.

Again, the collapse of the soviet union and the subsequent stagnation of the American rocket industry was a once in a century opportunity for China. Don't deny facts here. How often is a "friendly" neighboring space superpower gonna crumble into pieces and allow you to copy all their technology, while the other global space superpower bumbles their way into a cancelled rocket after cancelled rocket, for 20 years straight. America literally lost access to human spaceflight for like a decade, that's how fucking bad the situation was in America was. This of course happens every year right?
Except there was "no once in a century opportunity" for China. I don't care about your alterante facts because they are not real. Having a few sample engines does not make an entre supply chain appears overnight.

And that's how you fall behind in technology. Everything works just fine in a vacuum. Bows and arrows work fine until someone sails into your country with guns and demands you join the empire. Expandable rockets work fine until a certain company comes in and starts launching more payload then the rest of the world combined 10 times over.
No. Focusing money on areas that gives China more leverages is how China get ahead in technology. There's no denial of this.

Explain the soviet union's lead in rocket engine then? They had the same issues that China faced, large uneducated pleasant population, very poor- both per capita and total economy wise, took a massive beating in WW1 and WW2 and even faced their own fair share of massive famines. Really, the only thing that they had going for them was them being a industrial powerhouse, almost like a certain other country.
Soviet Union is not China. Case closed.

This is 1990s China vs 1960s America and Soviet union, not 1960s China. They were designing rockets with slide rulers and pen and paper in the 60s. Basic electronics were barely a thing back then. Trying to compare the two is just embarrassing.
No. The rocket industry in 1990s China was in worse shape than 1960s China. There was no funding because the money went into developing the economy. Proper engineering procedures couldn't even be followed and that led to failed launches.

Which makes it worse that China cannot modernise her rocket fleet even in 2024.

Then explain how SpaceX is launching around 80 times a year while China is launching rocket equipped with the YF-100 around 4 times a year.
Except China is modernizing her rocket fleet.
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
Explain the soviet union's lead in rocket engine then? They had the same issues that China faced, large uneducated pleasant population, very poor- both per capita and total economy wise, took a massive beating in WW1 and WW2 and even faced their own fair share of massive famines. Really, the only thing that they had going for them was them being a industrial powerhouse, almost like a certain other country.

This is 1990s China vs 1960s America and Soviet union, not 1960s China. They were designing rockets with slide rulers and pen and paper in the 60s. Basic electronics were barely a thing back then. Trying to compare the two is just embarrassing.
my GOD.. honestly i have lost words after seeing your comment. you have not only deficiency of history but also lack of proper knowledge about China for further discussion..
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you said, 1990's of China can be comparable to USA1960's/USSR1960's in science and technology ..

USSR got industrialized in 1930's decade.. Most of their existed aerospace/aviation institutes were founded in pre-WWII time period.

ever heard of Operation Osoaviakhim?? it was a secret Soviet operation under which more than 2,500 former
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specialists (scientists, engineers and technicians moved to USSR along side their families.

''Much related equipment was also moved, the aim being to literally transplant research and production research centers such as the
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center of
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, from Germany to the Soviet Union, and collect as much material as possible from test centers such as the
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central military aviation test center at Erprobungstelle Rechlin, taken by the Red Army on 2 May 1945.''

USSR building D-30/NK-25 engines in 1960 with supersonic Bomber TU-22M and much more achievements..

same thing US did ..

Operation Paperclip was a secret US intelligence program in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians were taken from Nazi Germany to the U.S. for government employment after the end of WWII between 1945–59..

it was Germans, who pioneered the rocket technology. both USSR/US greatly benefited from Nazi engineers in this field.

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1990's China couldn't even dream of all such complex machines.. let alone comparing themselves with USSR/USA of 1960's in science and tech.

it was only in 2010's decade China is able to replicate what USA/USSR did in aerospace/aviation field back in 60's/70's .. same applicable in aviation field like engines .. coz Material science is backbone in rocket engine and turbofan..
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Where is the Soviet Union now? In the dust bin of history. Soviet Union showed China what not to do.

You should've mic dropped here

Another thing to note, the ability for people to leave China in the last 20 years was far easier than people leaving the USSR, not even accounting for those in scientific fields. It was a calculated risk to let people go and maximize their potential rather than trap and potentially stagnate them. Now that the money and capability has caught up, they are able to finally bring them back.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
If orbital anti-missile technology like Brilliant Pebbles becomes a reality, I will be laughing hard. Funny enough, it's probably a dismissive attitude like yours that caused China to ignore their rocket technology for so long. From how China reacted to SpaceX and Starlink, I don't think that they would have ignored rocket development for so long if they viewed it as such a priority for national security

I would call SpaceX outlaunching China 20 times over to be falling behind, that's for sure. Let's just look at China's own development plans, a dozen F9 and FH clones, a Starship clone, Starlink clones, even new infrastructural projects like the Wenchang commercial launch site wouldn't have been build without the influence of SpaceX. Doesn't feel like China is "catching up" when you have this embarrassing display of copying. Again, they had 20 years to catch up and they didn't, they pissed 20 years away with nothing to show for it.
So when will Space X send a probe to the far side of the moon like China did? Again Space X and NASA are decades behind China on this technology.
 
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