China's Space Program Thread II

zxcv872

New Member
Registered Member
The CZ-10 is supremely important. It will enable replacing the older generation of rockets like the Long March 7 and 5 with a much cheaper to manufacture rocket. Which will become even cheaper once they make it reusable. It also does this with minimal expense to develop the requisite production facilities since it reuses existing infrastructure.

Cost-efficiency is important. However, other things are important too.

Having something earlier is worth more than having something later. Earlier launch capacity means constellations can reach a degree of operational status earlier. The value of constellation size is usually not linear. In some cases marginal returns will follow an inverted U-shape, and most cases will have strictly diminishing returns. Having a constellation become operational earlier means that the industry can start earlier to accumulate the experience of fielding and operating such a constellation, and the same is true of downstream applications. As I understand it, under ITU rules, as well as under the rules of many countries, spectrum rights are allocated on a first come first served basis, which would be relevant in the areas where there are spectrum conflicts with American competitors.

Schedule certainty has great value all on its own. Surprise delays in launch causes cascading delays to payloads and the downstream applications of those payloads, costing money. If every Chinese launch company focuses on chasing the latest and greatest in launch technology despite the schedule risks that entails, it could lead to a scenario where a lot of payloads remain grounded for years, causing payload companies and the people who intended to use the payloads to lose enormous amounts of money. Delays to launchers are not independent events when the launchers are highly similar. So the fact that there are several development projects running in parallel does not remove uncertainty. If there is too much launch capacity uncertainty, many companies will delay investments in payloads and downstream applications, because of the risk of losing a lot of money on delays. It could mean that China encounters a situation of having a lot of launch capacity and not enough payloads to launch.

Many other Chinese companies are working on rockets that are potentially more cost-effective than CZ-5-8, but will take time to finish and suffer from schedule unpredictability. So it makes sense if CASC decided to prioritize bringing balance the industry by focusing on rockets that are less cost-efficient but can be had soon and on a highly predictable schedule.

Some more thoughts on the CZ-10A, why I think a very large fleet might not be built, and why it might not necessarily be advantageous to do so:

Suppose first launch of CZ-10A in 2026. It took SpaceX two years to successfully land a booster from beginning to try in 2013. Assuming CASC follows the same path, it means CZ-10A boosters won't start accumulating before 2028.

The state of China's launch industry in the early 2030s will be very different from now. There will be a lot more rockets operational, providing a solid baseline launch capacity that won't rest on CASC alone. Thus, by then, it makes sense for CASC to focus on the cutting edge at the expense of the established, and they might start converting some YF-100 production capacity to YF-215 beginning around 2031. That way they can hit the ground running when the CZ-9 is ready to launch in 2033, like SpaceX which started large scale production of Raptor before SS/SH launched and before Raptor itself had finished development.

The CZ-10 project will start to consume engines from 2027 onward. A first launch in 2027 will consume 29 YF-100. Perhaps an unmanned lunar landing rehearsal in 2028 will consume 58 YF-100. From 2029 onward, it will consume 116 YF-100 per year, assuming two manned landings per year, like Apollo. I think this could constitute a large chunk of total YF-100 production at the time. I think it will be hard to dramatically scale up YF-100 production, because competition for relevantly skilled labor will be ferocious. There will be competition with other projects within AALPT (6). There will be competition with turboshaft and turbofan engines, such as WS-20 and CJ-1000. There will also be competition with other Chinese launch companies, some of which have grand plans to produce 300-500 engines per year (3, 4, 5). And it would make sense to fund those plans, because they likely have better rockets than CZ-10A.

It is interesting to compare CZ-10A with Falcon 9 FT. F9FT can send 14,460kg to 51.6 degree inclination 400km circular LEO (ISS orbit) using ASDS landing (1), with launch mass 549t. That gives a payload mass fraction of 2.63%. CZ-10A's payload mass figure for LEO can't be referring to a worse LEO orbit than that. CZ-10A's barge landing payload is 14t, with a launch mass of 750t. This gives a payload mass fraction of 1.87%. So F9FT has a payload mass fraction that is 41% higher. This is despite CZ-10A benefiting from scale, staged combustion, and the elimination of landing legs. There seems to be something very suboptimal with the design. The choice to eliminate landing legs and use unproven wire-catching instead, while innovative, raises the suspicion that 14t is indeed the absolute limit, and that CZ-10A wouldn't be able to send the new crewed spacecraft to the space station if it had conventional landing legs.

The apparent readiness to employ suboptimal and expedient kludge solutions for the rocket, makes me doubt how reusable the engine will be made. Using an oxidizer-rich preburner, for an engine that wasn't originally designed to be reusable, does not intuitively seem conducive to a long and problem-free engine life, unless it is thoroughly redesigned. Which might be a bad idea, if it means taking materials R&D resources away from the YF-215.

I don't see why an expendable CZ-10A would bring big cost savings. As an expendable rocket, it consumes 8 YF-100 to send 18t to LEO. This compares with ~25t to LEO using 8 YF-100 and 2 YF-77 for CZ-5B. CZ-10A requires only one fuel type, one engine type, and one tank diameter, however the CZ-5 launch pad and production lines for the YF-77 and 3.35m tanks already exist anyway. The YF-77 production line can't be shut down anytime soon, because the CZ-10A doesn't replace the CZ-5 for high orbits and deep space missions.

CZ-10A is a CALT rocket. Historically, about 40% of CASC rockets launched have been SAST models (2), and I assume there will be a similar ratio in the future. SAST rockets will need engines. As far as I know, SAST does not have the facilities to make 5m diameter propellant tanks for the CZ-10A, nor does it have a practice of adopting CALT rocket models. Maybe SAST will eventually develop a rocket that uses another engine, such as YF-209. Though, a production line building YF-209 is a production line not building YF-100, so that would impact YF-100 availability for CZ-10A too.

Thus I do not think there will or should be a large fleet of CZ-10A, the exception being if YF-215 development suffers severe delays.

I will add that I don't want to pretend to preclude the possibility that I am wrong, in part or whole. I just think that there are reasonable explanations for why CASC would chose to prioritize CZ-5-8 over CZ-10A, that don't involve stupidity or organizational paralysis, and that one should not measure the state of CASC merely by how fast CZ-10A is rolled out.

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Many other Chinese companies are working on rockets that are potentially more cost-effective than CZ-5-8, but will take time to finish and suffer from schedule unpredictability. So it makes sense if CASC decided to prioritize bringing balance the industry by focusing on rockets that are less cost-efficient but can be had soon and on a highly predictable schedule.
I wouldn't bet on those Chinese private rockets with large capacity being available before the CZ-10.

The CZ-10 project will start to consume engines from 2027 onward. A first launch in 2027 will consume 29 YF-100. Perhaps an unmanned lunar landing rehearsal in 2028 will consume 58 YF-100. From 2029 onward, it will consume 116 YF-100 per year, assuming two manned landings per year, like Apollo. I think this could constitute a large chunk of total YF-100 production at the time. I think it will be hard to dramatically scale up YF-100 production,
So what. SpaceX consumes way more engines in comparison. Each Falcon 9 module uses nine engines in the first stage. Starship is even worse.

It is interesting to compare CZ-10A with Falcon 9 FT. F9FT can send 14,460kg to 51.6 degree inclination 400km circular LEO (ISS orbit) using ASDS landing (1), with launch mass 549t. That gives a payload mass fraction of 2.63%. CZ-10A's payload mass figure for LEO can't be referring to a worse LEO orbit than that. CZ-10A's barge landing payload is 14t, with a launch mass of 750t. This gives a payload mass fraction of 1.87%. So F9FT has a payload mass fraction that is 41% higher. This is despite CZ-10A benefiting from scale, staged combustion, and the elimination of landing legs. There seems to be something very suboptimal with the design.
It's the stage design. SpaceX's Falcon 9 has a really low weight first stage which a lot of people never gave them credit for. The first stage is made of aluminium lithium that has been friction stir welded, and they use a low weight tank design instead of the isogrid construction most other companies use in their advanced rockets.

Using an oxidizer-rich preburner, for an engine that wasn't originally designed to be reusable, does not intuitively seem conducive to a long and problem-free engine life, unless it is thoroughly redesigned.
The RD-170 could be fired over a dozen times. It is quite likely that the YF-100 can also do this.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
CZ-10A is a CALT rocket. Historically, about 40% of CASC rockets launched have been SAST models (2), and I assume there will be a similar ratio in the future. SAST rockets will need engines. As far as I know, SAST does not have the facilities to make 5m diameter propellant tanks for the CZ-10A, nor does it have a practice of adopting CALT rocket models. Maybe SAST will eventually develop a rocket that uses another engine, such as YF-209. Though, a production line building YF-209 is a production line not building YF-100, so that would impact YF-100 availability for CZ-10A too.
I resisted to reply your first post untill this one seeing that you kept making conclusions based on imaginaries and misconceptions. This paragraph alone is enough to tell that you know nothing about Chinese space industry, so the rest of your post doesn't need any further rebutal.

SAST is a subsidary of CASC, it is the 8th academy of CASC just like CALT is 1st academy. SAST is responsible for boosters for CZ-5 which is a CALT rocket. CZ-4 and CZ-2D of SAST are deriviatives from CZ-2 by CALT, CZ-6A of SAST is a CZ-7 virants by CALT.

Also what is the point of SAST choosing YF-209 or any other engine for that matter, all CASC engines are made by 6th academy be it YF-100 or YF-209. YF-209 is also intended for a version of CZ-9 by CALT.

You don't read Chinese, do you? You have no knowledge of relationship of CASC entities and their evolvement and roles and responsibilities ASSIGNED by CASC, do you? You talk as if all these entities are kind of competing companies like Rocketdyne, Boeing and SpaceX. On the contrary, an accurate analog is that SAST and CALT to CASC are like SEAT, Audi and VW car to VW group. Please do some homework before making lenghty posts of non-sense.
 
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by78

General
Two screen captures from yesterday's spacewalk. Of interest is what appears to be a handheld camera used by one of the Taikonauts. I don't believe we have seen that before. The purpose of the spacewalk was to conduct inspection and repair of Tianhe module's solar array, so the handheld camera might well have been used as an inspection tool.

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by78

General
The Chinese Deep Space Exploration Laboratory has signed a memorandum of understanding with the Indonesian satellite operator UNISAT to cooperate on the International Lunar Research Station project.

【深空探测实验室与印尼UNISAT卫星公司签署国际月球科研站合作谅解备忘录】12月11日,中国工程院院士、中国探月工程总设计师、深空探测实验室主任吴伟仁在印度尼西亚雅加达访问期间,代表实验室与印尼UNISAT卫星公司正式签署《国际月球科研站合作谅解备忘录》,共同推动在国际月球科研站领域的深度合作。

印尼UNISAT卫星公司董事长Haryanto Sie先生热烈欢迎吴伟仁院士的来访,并表示将积极推动、参与中国与印尼政府之间开展的国际月球科研站各项合作。吴伟仁院士欢迎印尼UNISAT卫星公司及更多印尼航天企业、科研机构参与国际月球科研站大科学工程合作,并将积极带动印尼航天与深空探测技术的发展。

印尼海事与投资部战略投资协调副部长助理Bimo Wijayanto先生、印尼UNISAT卫星公司市场销售总监Loekat Kurnia Adriansyah先生、中国财政部副司长刘立栋女士、中国国际工程咨询公司副总经理沈浩先生、深空探测实验室总监于继科先生及中国华腾工业集团宇航系统部、深空探测实验室国际合作中心等单位相关人员见证签约。

印尼UNISAT卫星公司成立于2016年1月,是印尼本地VSAT卫星运营商之一。该公司位于印尼首都雅加达,并在印尼中部和东部均建有卫星地面站,提供卫星通信运营服务,主要从事印尼境内固网运营和卫星落地服务,为印尼企业客户提供VSAT双向卫星通讯链路和基于卫星的基站连接,为印尼主要连锁超市、银行、电信运营商等提供数据连接、ATM数据传输和电信数据回传等业务。
[Deep Space Exploration Laboratory and Indonesian UNISAT Satellite Company signed a Memorandum of Understanding on International Lunar Research Station Cooperation] On December 11, Wu Weiren, academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, chief designer of China's lunar exploration project, and director of the Deep Space Exploration Laboratory, visited Jakarta, Indonesia. On behalf of the laboratory, the laboratory formally signed the "Memorandum of Understanding on Cooperation on the International Lunar Research Station Project" with the Indonesian UNISAT Satellite Company to jointly promote in-depth cooperation in the field of international lunar scientific research stations.

Mr. Haryanto Sie, Chairman of Indonesian UNISAT Satellite Company, warmly welcomed Academician Wu Weiren’s visit and expressed that he would actively promote and participate in various cooperations between the Chinese and Indonesian governments on the international lunar scientific research station. Academician Wu Weiren welcomed the Indonesian UNISAT Satellite Company and more Indonesian aerospace enterprises and scientific research institutions to participate in the international lunar scientific research station scientific engineering cooperation, and will actively promote the development of Indonesian aerospace and deep space exploration technology.

Mr. Bimo Wijayanto, Assistant Deputy Minister for Strategic Investment Coordination of the Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Investment of Indonesia, Mr. Loekat Kurnia Adriansyah, Marketing Director of Indonesian UNISAT Satellite Company, Ms. Liu Lidong, Deputy Director-General of the Ministry of Finance of China, Mr. Shen Hao, Deputy General Manager of China International Engineering Consulting Corporation, Shenzhen Deep Space Mr. Yu Jike, Director of the Detection Laboratory, and relevant personnel from the Aerospace Systems Department of China Huateng Industrial Group, the International Cooperation Center of the Deep Space Exploration Laboratory and other units witnessed the signing.

Indonesia UNISAT Satellite Company was established in January 2016 and is one of the local VSAT satellite operators in Indonesia. The company is located in Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia, and has satellite ground stations in central and eastern Indonesia to provide satellite communication operation services. It is mainly engaged in fixed network operations and satellite landing services in Indonesia. It provides Indonesian enterprise customers with VSAT two-way satellite communication links and Satellite-based base station connections provide data connections, ATM data transmission and telecom data backhaul services for major supermarket chains, banks, telecom operators, etc. in Indonesia.

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