China's Space Program News Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Quickie

Colonel
I am thinking of the progress of CZ-9(21) and the (latest acceptable) time of moon base building being the determine considerations rather than CZ-9(11) itself.

In a way, I am looking at it as similar to steam and EM catapult. Both were developed in parallel, both reached completeness. Whoever was ready first before the critical time point was chosen. Steam cat and CZ-9(11) are not the favoured ones but may reach maturity and even be used if the favoured one can't meet the absolute deadline. The question is what is if there is a absolute deadline and what will it be.

In case of CZ-9(11) being cancelled due to CZ-9(21) being fast, YF-130 and YF-90 will continue to finish their work as fully ready engines even if they have no rocket to be used. Cancelling them any time from today is too late and waste of all the works done. Actually, these engines are in the second stage (Engineering design) after Conceptual and Key tech phase. YF-135 is in the first stage. So continue working on YF-130 and YF-90 is doing the 2nd stage work for YF-135 which will significantly speed up YF-135.

CZ-9(21) is certainly the final shape of CZ-9. CZ-9(11) was the final shape at the beginning of China's moon program before 2010, but seems to be obsolete after China's space ambition has massively expanded to include many deep space missions, long term operation of permanent moon base and near earth super-structures. Reusable is the only choice.

Can it be said that YF-130 development is probably getting along reasonably well considering that they have decided to develop the even more powerful YF-135 which is 660 tons against the YF-130's 440 ton (both twin-chamber)?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I am thinking of the progress of CZ-9(21) and the (latest acceptable) time of moon base building being the determine considerations rather than CZ-9(11) itself.

In a way, I am looking at it as similar to steam and EM catapult. Both were developed in parallel, both reached completeness. Whoever was ready first before the critical time point was chosen. Steam cat and CZ-9(11) are not the favoured ones but may reach maturity and even be used if the favoured one can't meet the absolute deadline. The question is what is if there is a absolute deadline and what will it be.

In case of CZ-9(11) being cancelled due to CZ-9(21) being fast, YF-130 and YF-90 will continue to finish their work as fully ready engines even if they have no rocket to be used. Cancelling them any time from today is too late and waste of all the works done. Actually, these engines are in the second stage (Engineering design) after Conceptual and Key tech phase. YF-135 is in the first stage. So continue working on YF-130 and YF-90 is doing the 2nd stage work for YF-135 which will significantly speed up YF-135.

CZ-9(21) is certainly the final shape of CZ-9. CZ-9(11) was the final shape at the beginning of China's moon program before 2010, but seems to be obsolete after China's space ambition has massively expanded to include many deep space missions, long term operation of permanent moon base and near earth super-structures. Reusable is the only choice.

I do think the ILRS moon base is an important determinant for the priority of CZ-9(21) -- for example, if they determine that there's a very important ILRS payload that just has to be launched by a certain year that the arrival of CZ-9(21) will not be ready for, then I could conceivably see them pushing for CZ-9(11) to continue being developed. That said, I personally think that if cancellation of 9(11) could help speed up 9(21) by a few years, and even if it means 9(21) would still end up pushing the ILRS moon base to the right by a few years, that could be an acceptable sacrifice. The ILRS base could have some of its smaller modules launched by CZ-5DY to plant an initial presence, and once CZ-9(21) is ready and VTVL capable, the boost in medium to long term expansion of the ILRS's size would be far greater than the initial short to medium term capacity that CZ-9(11) could provide.
(This is ignoring the other many benefits of reusable VTVL CZ-9(21) in conducting LEO launches as well that CZ-9(11) could not do).

I think the other important determinant for CZ-9(21)'s priority is the projected launch capacity of other nations in future era increments.
E.g.: how much annual tonnage would the US be expected to be capable of launching in 2025, 2030, 2035, etc.
I certainly do not think a nation's space program should be entirely dictated by competing up with what others are doing, but at the same time the geopolitical priority of certain projects has to be informed by other happenings in the world.


I suppose it is reassuring that continued development for YF-130 and YF-90 will still help to benefit YF-135's work, in which case at least the resources and time on YF-130 and YF-90 are not wasted.

The entire architecture of CZ-9(11) -- specifically the removable side boosters allow the 100t LEO CZ-9A and 50t LEO CZ-9B variants to exist -- are almost entirely invalidated by their commitment to CZ-5DY and its 70t LEO capability, as well as its resuable VTVL architecture that neither CZ-9A and CZ-9B offers.
That leaves us with the 140t LEO CZ-9(11) variant that is basically the only remaining CZ-9(11) variant that provides any sort of use, but it also doesn't have a reusable VTVL architecture, and the only thing going for it at this stage is if for some reason China really desperately needs the ability to put 140t into LEO or 50t into LTO by a specific deadline and aren't willing to wait a few more years for the much more future proof CZ-9(21).

But going into the 2030s and 2040s, I cannot see CZ-9(11) being relevant, while CZ-9(21) and even CZ-5DY offering substantially more longevity.
VTVL reusable first stages of:
- triple core CZ-5DY
- single core CZ-DY
- CZ-9(21)
Would basically cover all major launch categories.
Though of course, the virtue of CZ-9(21)'s design means:
- triple core CZ-9(21) with VTVL reusability could also be very viable if a need for it emerges.
 

iantsai

Junior Member
Registered Member
据中国载人航天工程办公室消息,神舟十三号航天员乘组将于12月26日在轨开展第二次出舱活动。航天员翟志刚、叶光富将进行舱外作业,航天员王亚平将在舱内配合支持。
Shenzhou-13 crew will perform the second extravehicular activity today. Zhai Zhigang and Ye Guangfu will going out of Tiangong, and Wang Yaping will stay inside the CSS for supporting operation.

It's the 72th day since the crew aboarded Tiangong Space Station.
 

Petrolicious88

Senior Member
Registered Member
The US counterpart to this experiment is called
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the spacecraft is scheduled to be launched today in fact.

What it does mean is here's one small sector in space technology where China has in fact shown it has the lead.
In a peer to peer competition, it is unlikely for any one party to hold the lead for long in the short term. The real competition will play out over several decades.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
How far are they along development with CZ-9(11) do you think they would have to go for it to be considered so far along that it is not worth it to cancel it?

At present I can see a rationale for working on both CZ-9(11) and (21), but at a certain point in the next couple of years I imagine they'll have to choose between one or the other, and given the noises they've made about 2030s and 2040s launch requirements in terms of frequency and tonnage, I have a feeling they're going to end up with a resuable super heavy first stage that looks something like (21) eventually.

===

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
From 2020, a prospective goal of seeking to be able to conduct a hundred per year around 2035 with the ability to annually launch thousands of tons into orbit, and in 2045 to conduct on demand launches of a thousand launches per year with the ability to launch tens of thousands of tons into orbit a year.

  包为民当天在福州开幕的2020年中国航天大会上,作《航班化航天运输系统的发展与思考》演讲时透露了上述计划。他说,实现航班化航天运输目标分为三个阶段:2025年前为起步建设阶段,主要任务是突破关键技术,形成试验试用系统;2035年实现目标初步建成,年总飞行数百次、总货运千吨级、总客运千人次;到2045年目标全面建成,实现按需发射,每年总飞行次数达千次量级,总货运万吨级,总客运万人次。

English version of same article from 2020, posting here for archive's sake.



Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Chinese scientist envisions regular spacecraft flights by 2045
Source: Xinhua| 2020-09-18 18:39:31

FUZHOU, Sept. 18 (Xinhua) -- A Chinese space expert on Friday said that he envisions China will be able to operate regular spacecraft flights by 2045.

The regular flights will include one-hour routes between global destinations, transportation between ground and orbit, and routes between orbits, said Bao Weimin, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

Bao, who is also director of the Committee of Science and Technology under the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation, made the remarks at the ongoing 2020 China Space Conference held in Fuzhou, capital of east China's Fujian Province.

By 2045, China is expected to operate over 1,000 spacecraft flights per year, transporting a total of 10,000 tonnes of freight and 10,000 passengers, said Bao.

By that time, the overall performance of China's spacecraft flight industry will have reached a world-class level, he added.
 

by78

General
High-resolution images of the latest CZ-7A launch mission.

51772918220_81afff9070_k.jpg

One more. Very long exposure.

51775003372_4e3d42b62f_k.jpg
 

iantsai

Junior Member
Registered Member
CNSA
At 11:11 on December 26, 2021 Beijing time, a CZ-4C carrier rocket successfully launched the Ziyuan-1 02E (资源一号02E) satellite into orbit. This launch is the 403rd flight of the Long March series.

51775818411_ca9b2264df_k.jpg

51775818451_db9a2d8b8d_h.jpg

51776459779_b0bb90c72c_k.jpg
51775003452_c39eecd0c3_k.jpg

51776459999_a28c9ed20a_b.jpg
CNSA made her new record in space launching by 53 times this year.

Before 2021, CNSA's highest annual launching record were made in 2020 and 2018, both 39 launches, then 34 shots in 2019.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top