China's SCS Strategy Thread

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
@plawolf i'll split answers between you and @FairAndUnbiased in uncovered parts if you don't mind. Or that will be whole lot of typing instead of my happy 假放 ;p

Big bases with lots of local population&military to draw repair workers from.
Big Chinese missiles aren't an infinite resource, and they're needed in an arc stretching from Hokkaido to (potentially) Dehli.
Also, watching Russian strikes against Starokonstantinov(storm shadow base) - while we don't know their exact effect and sometimes there are suspicious windows in strikes from there, the overall fact is that the airfield is unsuppressed. Area & concealment matter.


My master thesis was on a topic closely aligned to them, exactly when they were built. I do have a rough idea of their size, shape, vegetation, infrastructure, and so on.
Experience on the suppression of open atoll airfield bases during WW2 also comes in handy. They are suppressable - way more so than land bases.


Since you doubted my qualifications - let me ask for yours. Have you ever seen or planned scanning patterns for UAVs? :)
Like, I did. I doesn't work this way - and this is why people still struggle to understand how HIMARS(and Tornados) live in Ukraine. Yet live they do - very often even after getting detected - and lost.
Also, we haven't even achieved that air superiority yet. It's a such small thing as air superiority against the United States at a meager +2-3 thousand kilometers away from the mainland - all that while probably fighting against all those Wanwans, Japans and other South Koreas; maybe Singapore as well.


It isn't some magic thinking - it's a basic self-deployment maneuver into infrastructure that is already there(since the cold war and even WW2), and is being actively refurbished, openly, as we speak. Why all the denial?
20230824army8624325_0139.jpg.iiey2Z7YMZffL7FjYBMA.CNSJ_NV1KJ-800x445.jpg

Aussie F-35A at Clark.


What matters isn't the "balance of powers". China will be more powerful in SCS, this isn't doubted.
But superior force generation doesn't exactly deny enemy fires.

What matters is that:
(0)Philippines host US troops, aimed at Chinese forces and China proper. They already do.
(2)Philippines, among others, block access to and out of SCS(and also ensure freedom of access from outside to hostile assets);
(3)from Philippines all of the SCS is under threat, and thus your freedom of use of the sea is compromised. SCS includes key SLOCs, including coastal traffic, vital for Chinese economy.
(4)from Philippines, among others, Chinese mainland can be shot (USMC tomahawks).

Yes, China can shoot back and turn the Philippines into a mess, as Russia does at Ukraine.
People will suffer, Zelenskiy will curse from the screen, and nothing will change.
You need to deny the ground to the hostile forces, not take revenge on civilians. It's pointless.
And turning the Philipines into a wasteland without a powerful strategic bombing campaign will not be achieved anyways.

Overall: US fires ensure, that the right solution is being able to invade Philippines in force and occupy them.
Looking scary and threatening consequences has already failed.

.
I get the logic and rationale of your explanation(s) of the immense challenge and dilemma the PLA will face in a potential war with the U.S./PH. But I am unconvinced that somehow the Filipino folks will hanker down ala Ukrainians when the shit literally hits the fan. For much of their history the population that tend to put up the strongest and most fierce resistance against their would be colonizers come from the southerners a.k.a. from the islands of Visayas (Bohol) and Mindanao -- where Muslims have been struggling to fight for their own independence.

The most important centre of gravity against a potential conflict with the PH is the Filipino psyche and morale. If their political elites are to be shown as nothing more than cowards and self-serving sell outs to the American interest by literally targeting all their political and military elites anywhere and everywhere in the country showing them to be helpless and impotent against the determined power and will of the PLA. Most especially against the U.S. forces which is the PRIMARY AND SOLE reason where the confidence come from. Destroy that of which provides the illusion of invulnerability and everything crumbles.
 

duskseeker

Junior Member
Registered Member
I get the logic and rationale of your explanation(s) of the immense challenge and dilemma the PLA will face in a potential war with the U.S./PH. But I am unconvinced that somehow the Filipino folks will hanker down ala Ukrainians when the shit literally hits the fan. For much of their history the population that tend to put up the strongest and most fierce resistance against their would be colonizers come from the southerners a.k.a. from the islands of Visayas (Bohol) and Mindanao -- where Muslims have been struggling to fight for their own independence.

The most important centre of gravity against a potential conflict with the PH is the Filipino psyche and morale. If their political elites are to be shown as nothing more than cowards and self-serving sell outs to the American interest by literally targeting all their political and military elites anywhere and everywhere in the country showing them to be helpless and impotent against the determined power and will of the PLA. Most especially against the U.S. forces which is the PRIMARY AND SOLE reason where the confidence come from. Destroy that of which provides the illusion of invulnerability and everything crumbles.
look they are zombified enough to eat MREs and keep on fighting. There has never been a nation on earth that simps for colonial masters more than they do. Never underestimate the power of a hundred million propaganda eating people. As for US army bases in the Philippines it's too few, too weak and the logistics will be a nightmare since the streets and highways there are the most congested in Asia. The geography doesn't help them either. an extensive bombing campaign will be enough to cripple them, and the overly hyped Himars wouldn't make a difference. Going to a ground war with them actually gives them an advantage when you have all the advantage. Since you deplete more ammo and fuel. Watch the USA and the Philippines just try to invade the SCS island bases and waste man power and ammo trying to take it. It's a major distraction. As for food, Philippines actually eat trash and can sustain themselves on it. Ever heard of pagpag?
 

duskseeker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Plus from what I've seen personally, that is a country where people drink energy drinks to do nothing at twice the speed. They will wait around till someone wins and align themselves with the victors. Also the issue of food. most of their food actually comes from Mindanao. So even logistically they can't win...
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
@plawolf i'll split answers between you and @FairAndUnbiased in uncovered parts if you don't mind. Or that will be whole lot of typing instead of my happy 假放 ;p

Big bases with lots of local population&military to draw repair workers from.
Big Chinese missiles aren't an infinite resource, and they're needed in an arc stretching from Hokkaido to (potentially) Dehli.
Also, watching Russian strikes against Starokonstantinov(storm shadow base) - while we don't know their exact effect and sometimes there are suspicious windows in strikes from there, the overall fact is that the airfield is unsuppressed. Area & concealment matter.

China could only hope American tacticians are foolish enough to copy paste Ukrainian examples to apply to the PLA.

My master thesis was on a topic closely aligned to them, exactly when they were built. I do have a rough idea of their size, shape, vegetation, infrastructure, and so on.
Experience on the suppression of open atoll airfield bases during WW2 also comes in handy. They are suppressable - way more so than land bases.

Wow, a master’s thesis! Just like the one used to justify invading Iraq to look for WMDs?

Sure, anything is theoretically possible. But just how do you practically imaging the US to be able to suppress China’s SCS island bases? Just how much force does the US need to this little adventure?

Also, applying WWII examples to the SCS is just plain nonsense because of the vastly different stages of the conflict. In WWII, island hopping was possible because the IJN had already been effectively broken as a near-peer challenger to the USN. WWII tech limitations also mean Japanese held islands were isolated and could not effectively mutually support each other.

China also took those historical lessons to heart, which is why it’s SCS islands were selected to be able to offer each other mutual support.

Since you doubted my qualifications - let me ask for yours. Have you ever seen or planned scanning patterns for UAVs? :)
Like, I did. I doesn't work this way - and this is why people still struggle to understand how HIMARS(and Tornados) live in Ukraine. Yet live they do - very often even after getting detected - and lost.

Maybe if you spent as much effort actually applying the skills and knowledge your qualifications and achieved is supposed to have given you instead of just talking about them your posts wouldn’t be so illogical.

I said hunter kill UCAVs precisely because those are what is needed to effectively hunt high mobility targets at extended ranges. But please, tells us more about how you have a paper written about how HIMARS are immune to hunter-killer UCAVs.

Also, we haven't even achieved that air superiority yet. It's a such small thing as air superiority against the United States at a meager +2-3 thousand kilometers away from the mainland - all that while probably fighting against all those Wanwans, Japans and other South Koreas; maybe Singapore as well.

Its an even smaller deal for the US to contest air superiority 13 thousand kilometres from its mainland on China’s doorstep while also propping up vassals all across the Asia Pacific rim.

If you want to tally up how much forces the US can actually spare for the Philippines while fighting in all those theatres first before doing your usual magical thinking please.

It isn't some magic thinking - it's a basic self-deployment maneuver into infrastructure that is already there(since the cold war and even WW2), and is being actively refurbished, openly, as we speak. Why all the denial?
20230824army8624325_0139.jpg.iiey2Z7YMZffL7FjYBMA.CNSJ_NV1KJ-800x445.jpg

Aussie F-35A at Clark.

Yeah, infrastructure that has zero credible defensive capabilities at present against PLA attack.

You are basically insisting F35s from Australia can win a race to reach bases in the Philippines before Chinese missiles fired from its SCS island bases.

And even if the F35s do magically win that race, congratulations, you landed just in time for the PLA bombardment to arrive. Well done, you just made a lot of PLA generals cry from laughing too hard.

Just how do you imagine these self deployments to go? I’m genuinely curious.

What matters isn't the "balance of powers". China will be more powerful in SCS, this isn't doubted.
But superior force generation doesn't exactly deny enemy fires.

What matters is that:
(0)Philippines host US troops, aimed at Chinese forces and China proper. They already do.
(2)Philippines, among others, block access to and out of SCS(and also ensure freedom of access from outside to hostile assets);
(3)from Philippines all of the SCS is under threat, and thus your freedom of use of the sea is compromised. SCS includes key SLOCs, including coastal traffic, vital for Chinese economy.
(4)from Philippines, among others, Chinese mainland can be shot (USMC tomahawks).

Yeah sure, US GIs can one-shot Chinese carriers with their new battle rifles from anywhere in the Philippines!

Boost on the ground don’t do anything other than hold that ground. To shoot at China’s SCS bases, never mind the mainland, would require big missiles, which are big targets, which in turn would require protection. Is the F35 supposed to carry all of that in its bomb bay to self deploy?



Yes, China can shoot back and turn the Philippines into a mess, as Russia does at Ukraine.
People will suffer, Zelenskiy will curse from the screen, and nothing will change.
You need to deny the ground to the hostile forces, not take revenge on civilians. It's pointless.
And turning the Philipines into a wasteland without a powerful strategic bombing campaign will not be achieved anyways.

Sign, more evidence as if it’s needed that I’m just wasting my time. Go look at the geography of the Philippines and see how much mobility would be limited if key transport links were destroyed.

The purpose of hitting those infrastructure is not to punish the civilians but to limit the mobility and resupply of mobile missile systems and also to make hunting for them easier.

Overall: US fires ensure, that the right solution is being able to invade Philippines in force and occupy them.
Looking scary and threatening consequences has already failed.

.

How very American of you. Describe a situation that was never going to happen in the first place (a Chinese ground invasion of the Philippines) and claim credit for ‘preventing’ it with a token political gesture that serves zero practical uses and only increases the risks and costs to the locals.
 

lcloo

Captain
After centuries of robbing Muslim gold from the south by Luzon... It is a big possibility. I mean Indonesia and Malaysia basically funds the MNLF and MILF.
If Philippines fight against China in SCS at the same time also fighting the rebels from the South, and also the poors joining the revived Maoists rebels, we cannot discount Philippines will be Balkanised back to their individual pre-Spanish colonial era states.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Why? Like again, this is assumptions that enemy will be limited by some arbitrary limitations.
If Philippines are letting US troops(with their clear intention to shoot) in - they're already assuming the status of aggressor under UN charter (as defined by 33314 (XXIX). Assuming their maneuver will be limited, IMHO, is but a wishful thinking.


90kg payload is a weaker 8" shell (or a good 7-7.5 inch), if we use old metrics(gauging everything in shells is convenient). It's enough to make annoying crates, it's enough to airburst open equipment in a significant radius, it's certainly enough to pierce deep into a sub 10'000t ship or reinforced hangar.
It's enough to do a lot of harm.

And while 90kg indeed won't permanently disable a whole row of aircraft(as if there will be such rows) - 1 such strike, maybe 2-3 - and the airbase won't be used anymore for anything but short refuel perhaps. Aircraft aren't cabbages.

Ultimately that's one of the points - infrastructure of island bases won't be fully usable if there are such American fires in Philippines. Given that this infrastructure is paramount for boomer safety in their home bastion&when they leave SCS - it's just one more reason that in case of a war, US-hosting Philippines must be not suppressed (which is a simulation of a solution), but invaded.


I don't know where this number comes from, 50km is twice the number of S-300(coming from loss of efficiency of aerodynamic surfaces). HQ-19 - maybe, but since we all know what are the requirements for a 35-70km intercept - let me just leave it in doubt here. This is simply an area that wasn't even explored by most conventional interceptors until...tomorrow?


Flying to the Philippines in one leg is enough I guess.
Look at a map and draw distance lines. It's not arbitrary unless they're shooting water. I mean they can maneuver anywhere with roads, they just won't be able to usefully do anything.

90 kg is enough to damage the superstructure of a ship if it hits a moving target. Thats assuming it can. No evidence it had any active guidance and GPS jammers should be assumed. It'll maybe kill non hardened aircraft outside or damage a radar with a direct hit. It is NOTHING compared to a 500 kg hit. We've seen Kalibr and Islander hits in Ukraine.

You also don't need to hit the missile at the apex. It only spends infinitesimal time at the apex after all. Even at S-300 altitude is OK. And Mach 3 on an approach isn't all that fast.
 
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duskseeker

Junior Member
Registered Member
Honestly the war would be like the Philippines crawling to take out those SCS Island bases that is easily supported by the Chinese mainland before they can claim to take back their so called waters. The USN would have to use their entire fleet just to put a dent. in China's defences, which would then help Iran and Russia do some real damage. So why does china need to go to them when they can come to you and get barbecued. Some one is trying to goad the PLAN to attack a country with the majority resources coconuts. As for the South like Mindanao, I don't see why Malaysian who've been threatened by the Philippines with this MDT thing over and over again with Sabbah will not send or support rebels.
 
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