China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Hendrik_2000]

Submarines can already receive radio signals when fully submerged, but only down to 20 meters. However, being at shallow depth is dangerous, as you will be vulnerable to ASW assets, especially those equipped with MADs.

I haven't read the paper you are referring to but it's probably referring to short-range communications (we're talking meters, not even kilometers.) Radiowaves do not propagate well in salt water, because it's a conducting medium which dissipates EM energy. (Fun fact: Pure H2O is an insulator). Basically, this is a physics problem. No amount of engineering can overcome it. Humanity will need to discover new physics in order to solve this problem, and that would be a nobel prize level discovery. Until that happens, submarines will not be able to use radiowaves for long distance comms while submerged at their operational depths.

p.s. Entanglement isn't really relevant for any of this. Entanglement is for encrypting light based comms. The underwater version of that tech will be laser based, also over very short ranges, because light also propagates horribly in water (unless the platforms are tied together with long fiberoptic cables or something, but in that case you wouldn't need encryption anyway.)

I am no expert in submarine communication but yes there is such thing as ultra long wave used to communicate with submarine. Yes I remember there is even youtube video about it

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China Has Radio Antenna to Talk to Submarines and It Covers Five Times Area of NY City

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| January 1, 2019

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It will be used to communicate with submarines.
The Wireless Electromagnetic Method (WEM) project took 13 years and will emit extremely low-frequency radio waves (ELF waves). Those waves have been linked to cancer by the World Health Organisation.
Its transmissions could be picked up by a submarine lurking hundreds of meters under the sea, thus reducing the vessel’s risk of having to resurface to receive transmissions.
China built its first military-grade Super Low-Frequency transmission station in 2009. The United States and Russia already have submarine communication systems.

Project WEM’s main surface structure is a pair of high voltage power supply lines stretching from north to south, east to west on steel lattice towers, which form a cross that is 60km (37 miles) wide and 80km to 100km (50 to 62 miles) long.
At the end of each power line, thick copper wire goes underground through a deep borehole. Two power stations generate strong currents and electrify the ground in slow, repeating pulses, turning the earth underfoot into an active source of electromagnetic radiation.

The radio pulses not only pass through the atmosphere, but travel through the Earth’s crust as well, with a range of up to 3,500km (almost 2,200 miles).
In 2007, the WHO documented a large number of studies linking ELF radiation to a range of illnesses including delusions, sleep deprivation, stress, depression, breast and brain tumors, miscarriages and suicide.
The US Navy built a smaller transmitter, the Wisconsin Test Facility, with two 45km power lines in the Clam Lake area, a place with a low population density. The station emitted ELF waves at 76 hertz and was decommissioned over a decade ago.

In the 1980s the Soviet Union constructed Zevs, a considerably more powerful facility on the Kola Peninsula inside the Arctic Circle.
The Zevs antenna was powered by two 60km electric lines and had a main frequency turned at 82 hertz. The radio waves it produced were believed powerful enough to reach Russian nuclear submarines hidden deep under the Arctic ice cap.
Russia has since provided technical support to China as it started building its own systems, which may include other ELF stations in coastal areas.

The US Navy shut down its Wisconsin transmitter in 2004, saying it no longer needed to rely on ELF radio. The US nuclear submarine fleets use very low frequency or VLF radio waves, with a frequency ranging from 3 to 30 kilohertz, for long-distance communication. The VLF radio waves can carry more information than ELF signals because of this higher frequency, and can penetrate seawater to a depth of up to 40 meters (130 feet).

 

[ougoah]

It's long been speculated those low frequency antennas are for deep sea sub communications. I think conspiracy theories went wild with those in the past... weather control, ionosphere manipulation etc.

 

[Mohsin77]

I am no expert in submarine communication but yes there is such thing as ultra long wave used to communicate with submarine. Yes I remember there is even youtube video about it

I'm no expert either, but in that article, it says the USN also relies on VLF which can penetrate up to 40m of seawater (I thought it was 20m.) Other countries use the same system. As for ELF, like the article says, the US shut it down, which indicates it was never very useful.

Also, regarding SLCMs, against surface ships, I think submarines would need to track their own targets and provide a good firing solution, because they aren't communicating with other assets in the area. I'd be very surprised if they are capable of handing off SLCMs post launch to an AWACs, because there is no coordination between these two platforms. Submarines are lone wolfs by nature and design. Even when hunting in packs, they don't really coordinate with each other when submerged and hunting. It's total silence down there, hence 'the silent service.'

So assuming the above, this means that subs would need to get fairly close to their target before launching a salvo of SLCMs, which is a bigger problem than launching a salvo of torpedoes (which are much quieter.) As soon as they launch SLCMs, the opponent would know exactly where to vector their ASW assets. I think torpedoes will remain the preferred option for submarine captains for this reason. You can launch them from many kilometres away without anyone knowing where exactly they came from. Also, a torpedo hit is much more destructive.

Anyways... interesting discussion this. Sub warfare is a very technical, enigmatic and classified field (ironically similar to air warfare, which also takes place in 3 dimensions.) We can only hypothesize for the most part.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Submarines can already receive radio signals when fully submerged, but only down to 20 meters. However, being at shallow depth is dangerous, as you will be vulnerable to ASW assets, especially those equipped with MADs.

I haven't read the paper you are referring to but it's probably referring to short-range communications (we're talking meters, not even kilometers.) Radiowaves do not propagate well in salt water, because it's a conducting medium which dissipates EM energy. (Fun fact: Pure H2O is an insulator). Basically, this is a physics problem. No amount of engineering can overcome it. Humanity will need to discover new physics in order to solve this problem, and that would be a nobel prize level discovery. Until that happens, submarines will not be able to use radiowaves for long distance comms while submerged at their operational depths.

p.s. Entanglement isn't really relevant for any of this. Entanglement is for encrypting light based comms. The underwater version of that tech will be laser based, also over very short ranges, because light also propagates horribly in water (unless the platforms are tied together with long fiberoptic cables or something, but in that case you wouldn't need encryption anyway.)

I am no expert in submarine communication but yes there is such thing as ultra long wave used to communicate with submarine. Yes I remember there is even youtube video about it

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But China does have elephant cage radar in SCS to locate submarine

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I don't think so ever heard of inertial guidance system The AWAC can send the COORDINATE of the surface ship to the submarine then the submarine program it into the missile
It then fired the missile and inertial system guide the missile to the target . Close to the target the radar of the missile activated and take over the guidance of the missile
Inertial guidance does not have the accuracy to guide it to the target that is why the switch over to either radar or other guidance

 

[SPOOPYSKELETON]

This longwave radio stuff is dumb. By nature it only goes one way, since how is a submarine suppose to mount the antenna required to produce such a powerful signal? It therefore cannot be used to coordinate ballistic missile strikes.

 

[Sardaukar20]

Traditionally subs needed to launch a comms antenna or surface to periscope depth to get radio communications. But there was an article posted on this forum a while back on an award being issued for a break-through in underwater radio communications, so PLAN subs may no longer need to do that and can get some comms while fully submerged. Unless I am vastly underestimating Chinese tech, and they have actually operationalised quantum entanglement communications, I think this will be a low bandwidth comms means, probably enough for text messages only, which would be enough.

Remember that the sub only needs to know what direction to launch the missile. After that it will be down to the missile seeker or an off board asset to datalink course updates to it.

This would be a new technology, because even though the PLAN has operated sub launched AShMs for decades, it is only in recent years that they have moved beyond the old sub launched C801/2, which only had a range of around 50km, which was most likely limited to such because they would have been relying on purely the missile seeker for guidance, so there would be no mid-course updates. Hence to try a shot like that from much further away would be too much of a low probably shot as the odds are good the target ship would have moved enough that the missile seeker won’t be able to acquire it once it has reached its initial launch target destination.

The kill chain for such a shot could be fairly robust, with AWACS, AEW drones, satellites and maybe even OTH radar and passive EW could all be capable of giving updates enemy fleet location data, that can be data linked to missiles for mid-course update.

You need to remember that one of a carrier strike groups primary defences is not being detected, which means very strict emissions management. Problem with that is that unless the carrier thinks it might be in danger, it will be limited to passive sensors, as blasting away on full power with shipboard radar is a great way to let the enemy know where you are with EW signals analysis.

As such, if it was a drone with passive EO sensors that spotted the carrier, it may not know that missiles are coming at it until the seekers on them goes active.

That is one of the key threats of lurking SSK with long range AShMs - they can threaten enemy fleets when they still think they are far from danger zones.

Its good that you mentioned about China's quantum entanglement communications. Some Chinese companies are already offering commercial quantum encryption services. If its good enough to go commercial, its definitely in full operation in the military. Similar to the GPS in military and civilian use. Quantum encryption cannot be decoded with current and near future technologies. So unless there is a miracle, Chinese high level military communications are practically impossible to intercept. This gives the Chinese forces a great advantage in the SCS.

There were some rumours of some US jets getting their communications jammed when they flew nearby to one of those Chinese owned islets in the SCS. If true, then some kind of EW warfare tactic have already been developed. Using this, the enemy communications could be disrupted in a conflict, further making things difficult for them.

I hope the PLAN submarine forces have practiced extensively for a major war. They need to know the undersea terrain of the SCS like the back of their hands. With that they would know where to 'hide' their submarines in the terrain, where to place mines, where to sneak around, and where the enemies can be surprised. I am sure that the PLAN would also make extensive use of underwater drones, to act as scouts, hunters, and decoy. These would act as force multipliers for PLAN submarines.

The enemy navies are not going to have a walk over when fighting China in the SCS. I think their biggest weakness is Hubris. There is a popular idea in Japan, USA, and off course our good old friends India that the PLAN navy can be 'wiped out' within hours by their superior navies. I'd like to see how the brave these sailors are on those mighty' navies of democracy' when they actually start getting shot at.

 

[Gatekeeper]

South China Sea: after all its posturing, the US is struggling to build a coalition against China

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Hardly surprising when the countries around the SCS are fighting amongst themselves. A little reported facts because it doesn't fit the big bad China narratives.

Take this shooting and killing of a Vietnamese fisherman by Malaysia coastguards over the weekend. No reports on BBC, CNN etc. Only picked up by SCMP two days later.

Imagine the outcry if the shootings were by Chinese coastguards!

From SCMP.

Vietnamese fishing boats are seen detained in Malaysian territorial waters in Kelantan on Monday.

This Week in Asia / Politics

South China Sea clash raises Vietnam-Malaysia tensions after fisherman shot dead
The incident took place on Sunday after Malaysia’s coastguard attempted to inspect two Vietnamese boats deemed to be engaged in illegal fishing

Analysts have raised concerns over the implications for relations within Asean – as well as the region’s ties with China

Tashny Sukumaran
Published: 9:30pm, 18 Aug, 2020

Rest of the article:

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[B.I.B.]

South China Sea: after all its posturing, the US is struggling to build a coalition against China

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It just says the US current approach does not seem to be working, but who's to say a different approach such as being more engaged with the ASEAN countries may see a more positive response by them.

 

[Jono]

the RCEP will be signed soon without India as it refuses to co-operate with anything Chinese.
The Americans are trying to stoke up tensions in the SCS region by employing its old but effective tactic of divide and rule, to scuttle the RCEP. Trump cannot bear to see RCEP moving forward, to the detriment of US economy.
and ASEAN countries are not stupid, they know the real intention of the US, and therefore would only pay lip service to Trump.

 

[localizer]

View attachment 62612
the RCEP will be signed soon without India as it refuses to co-operate with anything Chinese.
The Americans are trying to stoke up tensions in the SCS region by employing its old but effective tactic of divide and rule, to scuttle the RCEP. Trump cannot bear to see RCEP moving forward, to the detriment of US economy.

Trade also help prevent war. Besides, do these countries really want to fight China? For what?