China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Jeff Head]

obviously, ramming is NOT the same thing as shooting.

Solarz...read what I wrote, and then please try to repsond to what I said, and not to what you decide it means.

I never said that ramming and shooting were "the same thing." Obviously they are not "the same." A 40mm or 76mm projectile is not "the same" as a 5,000 ton ship.

What I said was this:

you have already escalated it to life or death conditions.

Whether they are using a 40mm or 76mm projectile...or a 5,000 ton one, the mortal peril is the same.

See the difference? it is a pretty singificant difference.

Both are a mortal threat to life. That is what is the same...and that is inarguable. Even though they are using differnt things to accomplish it.

In fact, arguably, ramming and sinking a vessel is more imperiling. This is becusse everyone on the ship is put into mortal peril at the same time, whereas those types of weapons can be more disciminating.

As I said...you may phrase it ...or rationalize it...however you wish.

 

[solarz]

Solarz...read what I wrote, and then please try to repsond to what I said, and not to what you decide it means.

I never said that ramming and shooting were "the same thing." Obviously they are not "the same." A 40mm or 76mm projectile is not "the same" as a 5,000 ton ship.

What I said was this:



See the difference? it is a pretty singificant difference.

Both are a mortal threat to life. That is what is the same...and that is inarguable. Even though they are using differnt things to accomplish it.

In fact, arguably, ramming and sinking a vessel is more imperiling. This is becusse everyone on the ship is put into mortal peril at the same time, whereas those types of weapons can be more disciminating.

As I said...you may phrase it ...or rationalize it...however you wish.

You are ignoring the context here. China did not ram and sink an innocent fisherman's boat. China sank a boat that was crewed by Vietnamese paramilitary and who were actively trying to disrupt or sabotage the Chinese oil rig.

You mentioned the possibility of chasing and ejecting the boats. That works on illegal fishermen because fishermen are trying to catch fish to make a living. Being caught by law enforcement and losing all their catch is a sufficient deterrent for them to leave the area.

The same thing cannot be said here. Those Vietnamese boats are not going to just leave because their mission is to disrupt the Chinese oil rig.

 

[Blackstone]

You are ignoring the context here. China did not ram and sink an innocent fisherman's boat. China sank a boat that was crewed by Vietnamese paramilitary and who were actively trying to disrupt or sabotage the Chinese oil rig.

You were good till the part in bold. What evidence can you produce on the oil rig disrupt or sabotage claim? From what we've seen in videos, disruptions were far away from the rig in question. Sabotage? Where did that come from?

 

[PanAsian]

As the saying goes you have he said, she said and then you the truth which most times is somewhere in the middle. If China wants to defend their actions then they need to provide video themselves .. better a longer one. The video from the Vietnamese side shows one thing but it's probably edited from a time standpoint to show just impact instance. If their vessel were the aggressor earlier on the clip is probably cut and edited out for public consumption but again unless we see videos from BOTH sides the only thing we have is footage from one and we make a judgement from that.

I mean it's human nature.. who in the right mind is going to show something that incriminates themselves!

When any entity, person or country etc, is involved in an ongoing disagreement and has unfriendly interactions with others they need express their side of the story to the same degree as everyone else involved or they are only contributing to further misunderstanding, increased hostility, and their own isolation. This is a prime example of the PRC not being very adept at international relations.

 

[Zool]

You were good till the part in bold. What evidence can you produce on the oil rig disrupt or sabotage claim? From what we've seen in videos, disruptions were far away from the rig in question. Sabotage? Where did that come from?

The point of the exclusion zone being to ensure any hostile action towards the Chinese Rig takes place a safe distance away to avoid direct/secondary damage. This would be the reason you see "disruptions" some distance from the Rig itself. If video showed Vietnamese vessels battling along side the Rig, I dare say the Chinese Coast Guard has failed miserably in their task.

In regard to Sabotage. Well, I doubt the Vietnamese vessels intent are to sail to the Rig then turn back. Boarding is almost surely the objective. Beyond that who knows. It is the authorities responsibility to expect the worst and act against that outcome. I'm sure after the factory burnings and Chinese deaths in Vietnam, the planned worst case scenario is pretty substantial.

As mentioned in an earlier post. Context is King. In both the events transpiring and what people have noted in their full posts here.

Cheers

 

[joshuatree]

You were good till the part in bold. What evidence can you produce on the oil rig disrupt or sabotage claim? From what we've seen in videos, disruptions were far away from the rig in question. Sabotage? Where did that come from?

Well, are the Vietnamese ships sailing into an area that the Chinese had announced as off limits? I know the argument is the Vietnamese do not recognize those designated areas as off limits but from the Chinese POV, the continued intrusion may be enough action to be considered a disruption.

 

[Jeff Head]

You are ignoring the context here. China did not ram and sink an innocent fisherman's boat.

No, I am not.

I posted clearly that we simply do not know what the provoation was. Clearly, if the Vienamese provoked the Chineze with deadly peril to their operation or their lives, then it is understandable that they would put a stop to it howerver they could.

But, there has been no evidence shown of that.

What I take issue with is this cavalier attitude that implies that since the Vietnamese were there protesting (be it with fishermen, or their government employees on fishing boats), that therefore they deserve to rammed and sunk and put in peril of their lives.

That attitude will lead to more and more protests and confrontations...and it will prove China's international undoing. There's some more context for you.

Such an attitude it that of a rogue and a bully...and I am sure that China does not want to come across that way because it would ultimately lead to Vietnam, the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Japan, and ultimately the US all allying together to oppose what China is doing.

At least that is how I believe it would unfold with such a pronounced attitude.

China sank a boat that was crewed by Vietnamese paramilitary and who were actively trying to disrupt or sabotage the Chinese oil rig.

Fine. Then China should prove it.

China should show that is who they were and that is what they were trying to do.

Show videos of them doing so. Show the pictures and videos of their explosives, etc. In short, show the evidence.

So far only the Vienamese are showing evidence, and it shows clearly a larger Chinses ship running down and sinking a smaller Vietnamese one.

If China has evidence to show that such an action was warranted...I welcome them presenting it. Saying it is so is easy...but it proves nothing. Showing it with credible evidence is what will count.

 

[Blackstone]

In fact, arguably, ramming and sinking a vessel is more imperiling...

Well, yes... but, you got to admit, Hanoi has gone out of its way to gin up tensions and cry rape when the other guy shoves back.

 

[shen]

Are we sure this collision/sinking incident is even related to the drilling activity?

Here is a clip from a Chinese documentary about fishing in the South China Sea. Note the large banks of electric lights used to attract fish at night, similar to the arrangement on the Chinese boat involved in this incident.

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looks like this squid jigger.

 

[Jeff Head]

Are we sure this collision/sinking incident is even related to the drilling activity?

looks like this squid jigger.

IMHO, both sides are using fishing vessels to try and keep the tensions down.

In this case, China had a larger, faster vessel, and the way it ended up being used...unless it is shown that the Vietnamese imperiled them in such a way to warrant it...is ending up escalating the situation.

As I say, unless the Chinese show that the Veitnamese imperiled them seriously, then IMHO, Vietnam is going to decisively win the arguement here and it will influence people and nations against China.