China's SCS Strategy Thread

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I got it from news of various sources.
Chinese TV program talked About it.

There were all proxies wars with the Soviet.

Right now, US directly involved in South China Sea, it doesn't hide behind the proxy and their mentality is different so I figure the the cases are different.

I would say that is solely Chinese media talking about it, playing up the US existential threat. The US did not engage USSR in direct conflict that is true, but it hasn't even engaged China in proxy wars yet. NK and Taiwan crisis both diffused numerous times. Neither side wants that sort of fight. I don't know what you are talking about or what your point is?

Clearly China needs to improve the means to defend itself conventionally and non-conventionally. That is happening with or without whatever plans the US surely has for conventional war.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
China should not be pushed into a major war at all.

A wealthy hi-tech China would have 4x the population of the USA and therefore an economy that is 4x larger.

Given time, that translates into equivalent military and economic influence.

There's no way that sort of power differential wouldn't be recognised, which would preclude a major war from ever occurring.

US objectives in the SCS isn’t war, at least not anymore. That boat has sailed with China’s island building giving the PLA a decisive local military advantage.

If the US wants a war with China, all it needs to do is green light Taiwan Independence, and war it is.

That is one of the key reasons why the US insists on supporting the status quo across the strait - it gives them a cast iron guarantee to start a war with China any time they want.

But with Chinese economic and military power, a direct conflict will be way too costly for all sides.

As such, we can actually rule out a direct push from the US side for a military showdown, since they have a much better option in Taiwan if they want war.

What the US originally wanted to do was to control the SCS via proxies and cat paws via the likes of Vietnam and the Philippines. Which is why it all but cheered on their rampant island grabbing when China was reach out diplomatically.

When you look at the before pictures, it’s easy to see why the US thought the SCS would be a good place to force the issue, as Chinese holdings in the area were barely worth the bullets needed to take them out.

With US naval superiority, if push came to shove in the SCS, the US figured even a single carrier group could easily sink a few PLAN patrol ships, shoot down some fighters flying on fumes, with minimal risk; and the Chinese would just meekly back down knowing the more they escalated, the more they would loose.

That was the kind of conflict the US would have been willing to start against China.

But two factors have fundamentally changed the dynamic in the region. One is the speed and scope of the PLAN’s modernisation; and the other is China’s unparalleled island building capabilities.

The islands by themselves would be easy pickings; and similarly, as much as the PLAN has grown, the USN is still far superior.

However, those vast islands with the might of the PLAN behind them represents a challenge the USN would be extremely hard pressed to be able to crack.

There is a real and even high chance that the USN would loose outright in a fight to try and take those islands from China. Even if they can take the islands, the losses would be massive, and then they would have to keep garrisoning and defending those islands from continuous Chinese attacks.

It’s just a non-starter.

FONOP is mostly a face saving exercise intending to distract from the scale of the strategic defeat; and partly a rareguard action trying to prevent China from gaining 12nm territorial seas around its new-built islands.

Now, normally China would have been on very shaky legal ground to try and claim a territorial sea around many of the islands because of their pre-building status. However, ironically enough, America itself created the legal presedent with its lawfare against China.

China has all the historical backing for its claim to the Diaoyu islands, whereas Japan could only rely on facts on the ground. So when America discarded historical facts and instead focused sole on facts on the ground regarding the Diaoyu islands disputes between China and Japan, it effectively created the presedent China is using now in the SCS.

This is a classic example of why law should be left neutral and fair, and that by breaking the laws you yourself set up, you can hardly complain when others stop taking said laws seriously.
 

silentvoice

Just Hatched
Registered Member
IMHO China should not let the US push them into a major war with them over the next decade. For this initiatives like OBOR are crucial.
The question of war or peace in Taiwan not up to China though. China has little influence over what the Tsai regime does. Just like the present trade war, war was waged upon China first. China didn't have a choice but to respond.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Good oped by Kaplan US just have to live with a fact and yield some room for China. After all SCS is home water for China just like Carribean is for US
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How President Trump is helping Beijing win in the South China Sea

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.” He is a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and a senior adviser at Eurasia Group.

For years now, China has been at war against the United States
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— only Washington didn’t notice until the process was well underway. The Chinese way of war, modeled after the philosopher of middle antiquity,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, is to win without ever having to fight. Thus, the Chinese have been proceeding by microsteps: reclaim an island here, build a runway there, install a missile battery in a third place, deploy an oil exploration rig temporarily in disputed waters, establish a governorate, and so on. Each step is designed to create a small fact, but without eliciting a military response from the other side, since the Chinese know they may be a generation away from matching the U.S. Navy and Air Force in fighting capability.

The latest chapter in this process occurred earlier this month, when a Chinese warship dangerously
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the USS Decatur, a guided missile destroyer, in the vicinity of the
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.

China is not a rogue state and its policy makes perfect sense, given its legitimate geopolitical aims. Beijing’s approach to the South China Sea is quite comparable to the United States’ approach to the Caribbean during the 19th and early 20th centuries, when it sought to establish strategic dominance over its adjacent sea. Domination of the Caribbean gave the United States effective control over the Western Hemisphere and, thus, allowed it to pivotally affect the balance of power in the Eastern Hemisphere throughout the 20th century. Chinese domination of the South China Sea in the 21st century will do no less for China.

Effective control of the South China Sea will give China unfettered access to the wider Pacific, allow it to further soften up Taiwan — the northern boundary of the South China Sea — and, most important, make it a two-ocean naval power. Indeed, the South China Sea is the gateway to the Indian Ocean — the 21st century’s most critical body of water, which functions as the global energy interstate connecting the hydrocarbon fields of the Middle East with the middle-class conurbations of East Asia. China’s military actions in the South China Sea are inseparable from its commercial empire-building across the Indian Ocean to the Suez Canal and the eastern Mediterranean.

From the Chinese viewpoint, though, it is the United States that is
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. After all, the U.S. Navy sails its warships from North America to the faraway South China Sea, which, from China’s geographical reference point, is its home waters — just as the Caribbean Sea is to Americans. The very fact that the U.S. Coast Guard clusters ships in and around the Caribbean demonstrates how the United States, in a very real psychological sense, takes ownership of it. The Chinese, believing similarly, have coast guard vessels as well as a fishing fleet in the South China Sea region.


The United States must face up to an important fact: the western Pacific is no longer a unipolar American naval lake, as it was for decades after World War II. The return of China to the status of great power ensures a more complicated multipolar situation. The United States must make at least some room for Chinese air and naval power in the Indo-Pacific region. How much room is the key question. Remember that the United States’ principal allies bordering the South China Sea — Vietnam and the Philippines —
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with a much larger, economically dominant, and more proximate China. They require the United States as a balancer against China, not as an outright enemy of it. They know the United States has a robust military presence in Asia ultimately by choice — making its policies uncertain — whereby China is the region’s central organizing principle.

President Trump has communicated more uncertainty in the minds of our Asian allies than any previous U.S. leader of modern times. This might force them to conclude separate understandings with China. Such a process will be insidious, rarely admitted and almost never on the front pages. Yet, one day, we will wake up and realize that Asia has irrevocably changed.

Indeed, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis’s
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is being undermined by Trump’s trade policies. Don’t believe for a moment that the United States can use trade as a lever against China in the South China Sea, where Beijing has a well-grounded, long-term grand strategy, as opposed to Trump’s zigzagging whims.

Unless the United States wants a shooting war in the South China Sea, its only defense against China’s policy of gradual encroachment is a U.S. system of free trade and democratic alliance-building that buttresses its military posture and counters China’s own imperial system. Power is not only military and economic, but moral. And by moral I do not, in this instance, mean humanitarian or moralistic. I mean something harder: the constancy of one’s word so that allies can depend upon you. Only with that will littoral states such as Vietnam and the Philippines — to say nothing of Taiwan and South Korea — see it in their own interests to keep a safe distance from China.

In sum, there is a direct contradiction between Trump’s aggressive economic nationalism and his administration’s commitment to defend the South China Sea. The South China Sea is not the United States’ home waters; it is China’s. Geography still matters. And because the United States is so far away, its only hope is to offer an uplifting regional vision that anchors its military one.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
The question of war or peace in Taiwan not up to China though. China has little influence over what the Tsai regime does. Just like the present trade war, war was waged upon China first. China didn't have a choice but to respond.
From some of Chinese articles of I read, there are more and more opinions that China willing to do whatever it takes to prevent Taiwan independence, including send it back to Stone age. Then it would rebuild Taiwan from that point.
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
I would say that is solely Chinese media talking about it, playing up the US existential threat. The US did not engage USSR in direct conflict that is true, but it hasn't even engaged China in proxy wars yet. NK and Taiwan crisis both diffused numerous times. Neither side wants that sort of fight. I don't know what you are talking about or what your point is?

Clearly China needs to improve the means to defend itself conventionally and non-conventionally. That is happening with or without whatever plans the US surely has for conventional war.
US does want some of countries to have proxy wars with China except those countries have no guts.
So I don't know what you talking about
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
well think as a positive way, US military exercise in ScS, meant a good opportunity to collect various intel.

True, and "turn about" is fair play?? the main reason China does lots of testing in "Bohai Bay" is to avoid exposing those vessels and aircraft to this same kind of "signature" collection!
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
The question of war or peace in Taiwan not up to China though. China has little influence over what the Tsai regime does. Just like the present trade war, war was waged upon China first. China didn't have a choice but to respond.

From some of Chinese articles of I read, there are more and more opinions that China willing to do whatever it takes to prevent Taiwan independence, including send it back to Stone age. Then it would rebuild Taiwan from that point.
I think @silentvoice is saying that the overt declaration of independence is up to Taiwan/Tsai administration to make, PRC has little direct influence of this. A declaration of independence by Taiwan would initiate a path to war due to response from PRC. If non-independence policy is pursued by Taiwan, PRC would not pursue war. Thus initiator can only be Taiwan, not PRC, that is the argument I believe.

And yes, based off articles and documents, China seems to be willing to send Taiwan to back to the stone age if it is necessary. I think nukes are out of the question but Taiwan will likely be economically ruined after heavy resistance, its power generation cut, massive capital flight and brain drain. Its semi conductor industry would be destroyed and much of it would be headhunted and acquired by PRC. If the resistance isn't severe then Taiwan would likely be economically much better off after such a conflict.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Good oped by Kaplan US just have to live with a fact and yield some room for China. After all SCS is home water for China just like Carribean is for US
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

How President Trump is helping Beijing win in the South China Sea

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.” He is a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and a senior adviser at Eurasia Group.

For years now, China has been at war against the United States
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
— only Washington didn’t notice until the process was well underway. The Chinese way of war, modeled after the philosopher of middle antiquity,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, is to win without ever having to fight. Thus, the Chinese have been proceeding by microsteps: reclaim an island here, build a runway there, install a missile battery in a third place, deploy an oil exploration rig temporarily in disputed waters, establish a governorate, and so on. Each step is designed to create a small fact, but without eliciting a military response from the other side, since the Chinese know they may be a generation away from matching the U.S. Navy and Air Force in fighting capability.

The latest chapter in this process occurred earlier this month, when a Chinese warship dangerously
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the USS Decatur, a guided missile destroyer, in the vicinity of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

China is not a rogue state and its policy makes perfect sense, given its legitimate geopolitical aims. Beijing’s approach to the South China Sea is quite comparable to the United States’ approach to the Caribbean during the 19th and early 20th centuries, when it sought to establish strategic dominance over its adjacent sea. Domination of the Caribbean gave the United States effective control over the Western Hemisphere and, thus, allowed it to pivotally affect the balance of power in the Eastern Hemisphere throughout the 20th century. Chinese domination of the South China Sea in the 21st century will do no less for China.

Effective control of the South China Sea will give China unfettered access to the wider Pacific, allow it to further soften up Taiwan — the northern boundary of the South China Sea — and, most important, make it a two-ocean naval power. Indeed, the South China Sea is the gateway to the Indian Ocean — the 21st century’s most critical body of water, which functions as the global energy interstate connecting the hydrocarbon fields of the Middle East with the middle-class conurbations of East Asia. China’s military actions in the South China Sea are inseparable from its commercial empire-building across the Indian Ocean to the Suez Canal and the eastern Mediterranean.

From the Chinese viewpoint, though, it is the United States that is
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. After all, the U.S. Navy sails its warships from North America to the faraway South China Sea, which, from China’s geographical reference point, is its home waters — just as the Caribbean Sea is to Americans. The very fact that the U.S. Coast Guard clusters ships in and around the Caribbean demonstrates how the United States, in a very real psychological sense, takes ownership of it. The Chinese, believing similarly, have coast guard vessels as well as a fishing fleet in the South China Sea region.


The United States must face up to an important fact: the western Pacific is no longer a unipolar American naval lake, as it was for decades after World War II. The return of China to the status of great power ensures a more complicated multipolar situation. The United States must make at least some room for Chinese air and naval power in the Indo-Pacific region. How much room is the key question. Remember that the United States’ principal allies bordering the South China Sea — Vietnam and the Philippines —
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
with a much larger, economically dominant, and more proximate China. They require the United States as a balancer against China, not as an outright enemy of it. They know the United States has a robust military presence in Asia ultimately by choice — making its policies uncertain — whereby China is the region’s central organizing principle.

President Trump has communicated more uncertainty in the minds of our Asian allies than any previous U.S. leader of modern times. This might force them to conclude separate understandings with China. Such a process will be insidious, rarely admitted and almost never on the front pages. Yet, one day, we will wake up and realize that Asia has irrevocably changed.

Indeed, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
is being undermined by Trump’s trade policies. Don’t believe for a moment that the United States can use trade as a lever against China in the South China Sea, where Beijing has a well-grounded, long-term grand strategy, as opposed to Trump’s zigzagging whims.

Unless the United States wants a shooting war in the South China Sea, its only defense against China’s policy of gradual encroachment is a U.S. system of free trade and democratic alliance-building that buttresses its military posture and counters China’s own imperial system. Power is not only military and economic, but moral. And by moral I do not, in this instance, mean humanitarian or moralistic. I mean something harder: the constancy of one’s word so that allies can depend upon you. Only with that will littoral states such as Vietnam and the Philippines — to say nothing of Taiwan and South Korea — see it in their own interests to keep a safe distance from China.

In sum, there is a direct contradiction between Trump’s aggressive economic nationalism and his administration’s commitment to defend the South China Sea. The South China Sea is not the United States’ home waters; it is China’s. Geography still matters. And because the United States is so far away, its only hope is to offer an uplifting regional vision that anchors its military one.

This is a liberal Washington Post hit piece on Trump and his foreign policy, its NO different from the anti China pieces that others write? and folks whine and cry about here on SDF... so you want to believe this?? its very negative on purpose, look at the BHO regime, folks who didn't mind undermining America, her faithful citizens, and "giving away the store"?? in an effort to be "citizens of the world"??

Do you think most Chinese citizens see themselves as "Citizens of the World", or do they strongly identify as Chinese?? American citizens are the same, we have no desire to lose our national identity, or sell this country short?? so I would suggest you take these types of articles with a "grain of salt"...

China and America should work harder together?? but it seems that we are on a collision course, and nobody is willing to "give the right of way", so we shall see??

In the meantime stay tuned! LOL, its a crazy world, and getting crazier every day!
 
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