China's SCS Strategy Thread

vesicles

Colonel
This is a liberal Washington Post hit piece on Trump and his foreign policy, its NO different from the anti China pieces that others write? and folks whine and cry about here on SDF... so you want to believe this?? its very negative on purpose, look at the BHO regime, folks who didn't mind undermining America, her faithful citizens, and "giving away the store"?? in an effort to be "citizens of the world"??

Do you think most Chinese citizens see themselves as "Citizens of the World", or do they strongly identify as Chinese?? American citizens are the same, we have no desire to lose our national identity, or sell this country short?? so I would suggest you take these types of articles with a "grain of salt"...

China and America should work harder together?? but it seems that we are on a collision course, and nobody is willing to "give the right of way", so we shall see??

In the meantime stay tuned! LOL, its a crazy world, and getting crazier every day!

Well, you’ve got a traditional hegemony trying to hold on to its position and a new world power trying to challenge the throne.

Naturally, no one wants to give up their throne. And equally, no one who is in position to challenge the existing power will give up the chance to become the new boss. And inevitably they will butt heads. Hence the crazy time. There is no right or wrong, just a global geopolitical jousting match. Everyone is trying to win enough chips so that they can get more favorable terms at the negotiation table.

And as average Joes, we just hope they can finish the match as soon as they can. And we suffer as little as possible. Also, let’s hope the jousting match can stay as civil as possible. Losing money is better than losing lives...
 

Untoldpain

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is a liberal Washington Post hit piece on Trump and his foreign policy, its NO different from the anti China pieces that others write? and folks whine and cry about here on SDF... so you want to believe this?? its very negative on purpose, look at the BHO regime, folks who didn't mind undermining America, her faithful citizens, and "giving away the store"?? in an effort to be "citizens of the world"??

Do you think most Chinese citizens see themselves as "Citizens of the World", or do they strongly identify as Chinese?? American citizens are the same, we have no desire to lose our national identity, or sell this country short?? so I would suggest you take these types of articles with a "grain of salt"...

Robert D. Kaplan is certainly not a neo-liberal cheerleader. His work over the last three decades has consistently portrayed the world in stark, neo-realist terms. His view that the United States is increasingly constrained by the "Tyranny of Distance" in regard to SCS and Eastern hemisphere in general should be no surprise to you if you are remotely read on the subject matter.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is a liberal Washington Post hit piece on Trump and his foreign policy, its NO different from the anti China pieces that others write? and folks whine and cry about here on SDF... so you want to believe this?? its very negative on purpose, look at the BHO regime, folks who didn't mind undermining America, her faithful citizens, and "giving away the store"?? in an effort to be "citizens of the world"??

Do you think most Chinese citizens see themselves as "Citizens of the World", or do they strongly identify as Chinese?? American citizens are the same, we have no desire to lose our national identity, or sell this country short?? so I would suggest you take these types of articles with a "grain of salt"...

China and America should work harder together?? but it seems that we are on a collision course, and nobody is willing to "give the right of way", so we shall see??

In the meantime stay tuned! LOL, its a crazy world, and getting crazier every day!

It's not a liberal article, but a realist one.

The key point in the article is that the US should set up a system. The Trans Pacific Partnership that Trump junked was one element of this.

The underlying rationale being that the USA does not have the enough power by itself, to influence China.

And the power balance will continue to move further towards China and away from the USA in the future.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's not a liberal article, but a realist one.

The key point in the article is that the US should set up a system. The Trans Pacific Partnership that Trump junked was one element of this.

The underlying rationale being that the USA does not have the enough power by itself, to influence China.

And the power balance will continue to move further towards China and away from the USA in the future.

The US needs to enlist the cooperation of the rest of the developed world to contain China as evidenced by recent events in their effort to engage China economically and militarily. UK, Australia, and France conducting "freedom of navigation" in solidarity with the US in SCS. Problem for China is that it does need the global community to remain impartial to fully realise its potential but most of the western world sides entirely with the US and are willing participants in US efforts to undermine and contain China.

Until China can find a way around this and appeal to other nations politically as well as economically, I really doubt China will be able to get rid of American interference. Not in the near future at least. The CCP can start by dispelling the many myths US propaganda machine has built against China in recent times while influencing the younger generation's thinking. Perhaps they will grow up to be less inclined to think like the Cold War era people. If the next generations have fewer reasons in being emotionally motivated China-haters like these policy makers, it would go a long way in creating a fair playing field in which Chinese will dominate. This is something the US is terrified of, therefore they must sow the seeds of slander now before the Chinese get to even half American productivity.

Failing this, they will use any reason to justify military action while they are still ahead. Both gaps seem to be closing though, the worry is already very much real. From *Chinese are poor, incapable communists living in a shithole to *the Chinese are cheaters and only win by cheating us and us helping them (Clintons alleged assistance in all things military), all in one generation.

What Chinese leaders can do is to woo other main powers into a more multipolar world, Russia is already onboard with this. Now Russia-China just need the entire developing and so called third world onboard and stabilise their politics and economies so there are more empowered humans who are not aligned with the US+EU. This is where China's greatest hope comes from in terms of countering the US. By starting to enrich the rest of the world and make them either pro-China or neutral. EU is almost lost cause because they see Chinese as a "yellow peril" and will never want a China dominant world (small exceptions notwithstanding and Russia obviously is more aligned with China because the US still insists on antagonising them while China is today quite pro-Russia politically and economically). France may eventually become neutral if they understand that Russia is no longer the Soviet threat to western Europe it once was and if their citizens get annoyed with neo-liberal US imperialism and strong-arming what is a proud and capable European nation who probably desperately wants self-determination.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
The US needs to enlist the cooperation of the rest of the developed world to contain China as evidenced by recent events in their effort to engage China economically and militarily. UK, Australia, and France conducting "freedom of navigation" in solidarity with the US in SCS. Problem for China is that it does need the global community to remain impartial to fully realise its potential but most of the western world sides entirely with the US and are willing participants in US efforts to undermine and contain China.

Until China can find a way around this and appeal to other nations politically as well as economically, I really doubt China will be able to get rid of American interference. Not in the near future at least. The CCP can start by dispelling the many myths US propaganda machine has built against China in recent times while influencing the younger generation's thinking. Perhaps they will grow up to be less inclined to think like the Cold War era people. If the next generations have fewer reasons in being emotionally motivated China-haters like these policy makers, it would go a long way in creating a fair playing field in which Chinese will dominate. This is something the US is terrified of, therefore they must sow the seeds of slander now before the Chinese get to even half American productivity.

Two thousand years ago during the Warring State era in China, the state the Qin (from the traditionally thought to be backward northwestern part of China) became stronger and stronger. The more “civilized and advanced” eastern states wanted to contain the “barbaric” Qin.

The famous negotiator Su Qin went on and convinced all 6 eastern states to form an alliance against the state of Qin. Qin was literally locked in a corner. The problem with any alliance is that each party has their own interests to protect. And many times, these self-interests clash among the allied states. Then the state of Qin sent a master negotiator, Zhang Yi, to negotiate with each of the eastern state individually. Zhang Yi convinced each one of them to form individual alliances with the state of Qin, based on the unique needs of each eastern state. This individual alliance effectively destroyed the eastern alliance.

The way China now can counter the US-led alliance would be similar.

Now, how would the US counter that? The US should ensure that the overall interests of each of the nations within the western alliance should be aligned. However, the Trump administration is bullying all its allies into submission, effectively destroying its own alliance. Every ally of the US is now questioning “when will Trump eat his own words and back out the deals that he has agreed??” “When will Trump kick them in the nuts again??” It now becomes easier for China to convince the Europeans, the Canadians and the Australians that they would be better off when they stand with the Chinese. The US now needs a steady hand with unwavering credibility to hold the alliance together.
 
Good oped by Kaplan US just have to live with a fact and yield some room for China. After all SCS is home water for China just like Carribean is for US
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How President Trump is helping Beijing win in the South China Sea

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.” He is a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security and a senior adviser at Eurasia Group.

For years now, China has been at war against the United States
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— only Washington didn’t notice until the process was well underway. The Chinese way of war, modeled after the philosopher of middle antiquity,
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, is to win without ever having to fight. Thus, the Chinese have been proceeding by microsteps: reclaim an island here, build a runway there, install a missile battery in a third place, deploy an oil exploration rig temporarily in disputed waters, establish a governorate, and so on. Each step is designed to create a small fact, but without eliciting a military response from the other side, since the Chinese know they may be a generation away from matching the U.S. Navy and Air Force in fighting capability.

The latest chapter in this process occurred earlier this month, when a Chinese warship dangerously
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of the USS Decatur, a guided missile destroyer, in the vicinity of the
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.

China is not a rogue state and its policy makes perfect sense, given its legitimate geopolitical aims. Beijing’s approach to the South China Sea is quite comparable to the United States’ approach to the Caribbean during the 19th and early 20th centuries, when it sought to establish strategic dominance over its adjacent sea. Domination of the Caribbean gave the United States effective control over the Western Hemisphere and, thus, allowed it to pivotally affect the balance of power in the Eastern Hemisphere throughout the 20th century. Chinese domination of the South China Sea in the 21st century will do no less for China.

Effective control of the South China Sea will give China unfettered access to the wider Pacific, allow it to further soften up Taiwan — the northern boundary of the South China Sea — and, most important, make it a two-ocean naval power. Indeed, the South China Sea is the gateway to the Indian Ocean — the 21st century’s most critical body of water, which functions as the global energy interstate connecting the hydrocarbon fields of the Middle East with the middle-class conurbations of East Asia. China’s military actions in the South China Sea are inseparable from its commercial empire-building across the Indian Ocean to the Suez Canal and the eastern Mediterranean.

From the Chinese viewpoint, though, it is the United States that is
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. After all, the U.S. Navy sails its warships from North America to the faraway South China Sea, which, from China’s geographical reference point, is its home waters — just as the Caribbean Sea is to Americans. The very fact that the U.S. Coast Guard clusters ships in and around the Caribbean demonstrates how the United States, in a very real psychological sense, takes ownership of it. The Chinese, believing similarly, have coast guard vessels as well as a fishing fleet in the South China Sea region.


The United States must face up to an important fact: the western Pacific is no longer a unipolar American naval lake, as it was for decades after World War II. The return of China to the status of great power ensures a more complicated multipolar situation. The United States must make at least some room for Chinese air and naval power in the Indo-Pacific region. How much room is the key question. Remember that the United States’ principal allies bordering the South China Sea — Vietnam and the Philippines —
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with a much larger, economically dominant, and more proximate China. They require the United States as a balancer against China, not as an outright enemy of it. They know the United States has a robust military presence in Asia ultimately by choice — making its policies uncertain — whereby China is the region’s central organizing principle.

President Trump has communicated more uncertainty in the minds of our Asian allies than any previous U.S. leader of modern times. This might force them to conclude separate understandings with China. Such a process will be insidious, rarely admitted and almost never on the front pages. Yet, one day, we will wake up and realize that Asia has irrevocably changed.

Indeed, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis’s
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is being undermined by Trump’s trade policies. Don’t believe for a moment that the United States can use trade as a lever against China in the South China Sea, where Beijing has a well-grounded, long-term grand strategy, as opposed to Trump’s zigzagging whims.

Unless the United States wants a shooting war in the South China Sea, its only defense against China’s policy of gradual encroachment is a U.S. system of free trade and democratic alliance-building that buttresses its military posture and counters China’s own imperial system. Power is not only military and economic, but moral. And by moral I do not, in this instance, mean humanitarian or moralistic. I mean something harder: the constancy of one’s word so that allies can depend upon you. Only with that will littoral states such as Vietnam and the Philippines — to say nothing of Taiwan and South Korea — see it in their own interests to keep a safe distance from China.

In sum, there is a direct contradiction between Trump’s aggressive economic nationalism and his administration’s commitment to defend the South China Sea. The South China Sea is not the United States’ home waters; it is China’s. Geography still matters. And because the United States is so far away, its only hope is to offer an uplifting regional vision that anchors its military one.


HOLY JESUS AFB. I found your alleged grain of salt in the article. Vietnam and US are allies at best marginally and describing this as principal is duplicitous.

"Remember that the United States’ principal allies bordering the South China Sea — Vietnam and the Philippines —
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with a much larger, economically dominant, and more proximate China."
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
HOLY JESUS AFB. I found your alleged grain of salt in the article. Vietnam and US are allies at best marginally and describing this as principal is duplicitous.

"Remember that the United States’ principal allies bordering the South China Sea — Vietnam and the Philippines —
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with a much larger, economically dominant, and more proximate China."

You're absolutely right.

There is no way that Vietnam could be described as a US ally
 
Well, you’ve got a traditional hegemony trying to hold on to its position and a new world power trying to challenge the throne.

Naturally, no one wants to give up their throne. And equally, no one who is in position to challenge the existing power will give up the chance to become the new boss. And inevitably they will butt heads. Hence the crazy time. There is no right or wrong, just a global geopolitical jousting match. Everyone is trying to win enough chips so that they can get more favorable terms at the negotiation table.

And as average Joes, we just hope they can finish the match as soon as they can. And we suffer as little as possible. Also, let’s hope the jousting match can stay as civil as possible. Losing money is better than losing lives...

Your post parallels the conceptual quandaries of the situation: on the one hand greed is good yet on the other hand the less powerful should abide by the more powerful. The self-contradiction inherently leads to conflict.
 
Two thousand years ago during the Warring State era in China, the state the Qin (from the traditionally thought to be backward northwestern part of China) became stronger and stronger. The more “civilized and advanced” eastern states wanted to contain the “barbaric” Qin.

The famous negotiator Su Qin went on and convinced all 6 eastern states to form an alliance against the state of Qin. Qin was literally locked in a corner. The problem with any alliance is that each party has their own interests to protect. And many times, these self-interests clash among the allied states. Then the state of Qin sent a master negotiator, Zhang Yi, to negotiate with each of the eastern state individually. Zhang Yi convinced each one of them to form individual alliances with the state of Qin, based on the unique needs of each eastern state. This individual alliance effectively destroyed the eastern alliance.

The way China now can counter the US-led alliance would be similar.

Now, how would the US counter that? The US should ensure that the overall interests of each of the nations within the western alliance should be aligned. However, the Trump administration is bullying all its allies into submission, effectively destroying its own alliance. Every ally of the US is now questioning “when will Trump eat his own words and back out the deals that he has agreed??” “When will Trump kick them in the nuts again??” It now becomes easier for China to convince the Europeans, the Canadians and the Australians that they would be better off when they stand with the Chinese. The US now needs a steady hand with unwavering credibility to hold the alliance together.

A steady hand and credibility aren't the things the US needs, it needs a new direction. As long as the US continues down the road of benefiting itself at others' expense it will continue to fuel its own decline and force more and more extreme choices on itself and others.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
.... The US now needs a steady hand with unwavering credibility to hold the alliance together.

I don't have much trust or faith in the mango dictator and dear leader trump's groping hands (of women's kitty kat) directing America back to "greatness".o_O
 
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