China's SCS Strategy Thread

Engineer

Major
You forgot that you don't vote in parliamentary or presidental elections every month... They should make the loudest noise they can when they feel that government don't do what most of the people think is right for thier country - that's basis of democracy.

That's why democracy is flawed. What is right, and what people think is right are two different concepts. When the system is based solely on the latter, then everything done is about face and image and not for the people. So, you end up with opposition parties that oppose for the sake of opposing, and are willing to hold the country hostage just to make the ruling party looks bad. It's like a car with two steering wheels -- it's just going to be a disaster.
 

Engineer

Major
China warned: Don’t try to tow away BRP Sierra Madre
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MANILA, Philippines—China was warned Thursday against trying to tow away the BRP Sierra Madre from Ayungin Shoal, as this could be considered an attack against the Philippines and prompt the United States to defend the country in keeping with their Mutual Defense Treaty.
...

The Chinese navy is probably planing to tow away the rusting ship soon if intelligence receive correct. There will probably be some special operation first to evict those soldiers, I think the Phillipines need to quickly act and sent in some support navy to those soldiers. Their lives may be in danger.

That's call conjuring up a crisis where one doesn't exist. China has plenty of options aside from towing the derelict away. For one, the derelict isn't going to physical outlast China's patience. For another, China can always beach a couple of its ships on the shoal and there is nothing the Philippines can do about it. If the sailors on the derelict want to stay so much, China can also satisfy their wish by fencing up the derelict. I can go on and on, but like I said, plenty of options.
 

15 year old

New Member
The South China Sea dispute and East China Sea dispute is so damn ironic lol. Basically China is claiming the island much like how Japan is claiming the Senkaku islands. Japan is claiming the Senkaku when its like right in front of China's doorstep and China is doing the same thing to Philippines in South China Sea. Now the funny thing is that USA is supporting the aggressor in one dispute and the victim in the other (Japan for Senkaku and Philippine for South China). ROFL just shows that USA only cares about its own interests but always acts like the international police telling other people to follow international law aka American laws.
 

Rutim

Banned Idiot
These people are protesting for the sake of protesting against China more than they are protesting against closer economic ties. When people have been brainwashed for decades that "China is evil commie out to kill your entire family", you can't expect them to think rationally when it comes to China.
Didn't they do that in the past? Not that distant past? And if someone is brainwashed I doubt you could count a democratic nation with freedom of speech like ROC on the same level with PRC. The fear is similar to Central Europe countries which were cut by the Iron Courtain by USSR after the WWII fear Russia. No need to brainwash them as they felt 'commies' on their own skin and that was enough to hate them.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The South China Sea dispute and East China Sea dispute is so damn ironic lol. Basically China is claiming the island much like how Japan is claiming the Senkaku islands. Japan is claiming the Senkaku when its like right in front of China's doorstep and China is doing the same thing to Philippines in South China Sea. Now the funny thing is that USA is supporting the aggressor in one dispute and the victim in the other (Japan for Senkaku and Philippine for South China). ROFL just shows that USA only cares about its own interests but always acts like the international police telling other people to follow international law aka American laws.

It would be really good if people actually had an idea of what they are talking about before voicing and opinion.

Chinese claims in the SCS is nothing like Japanese claims to the Diaoyu islands.

The Diaoyu islands, much like the SCS islands, were discovered by China in ancient times and claimed by China since. The Japanese annexed the islands during the first Sino-Japanese war, which was a war of aggression launched by Japan.

After Japan's defeat in WWII, it was ordered to return all territory it seized through acts of aggression, which it did. But for some nonsensical reason, the Dioayu islands were placed in administrative control of the Americans rather than the ROC, and for another even more nonsensical reason, they were 'returned' to Japan by the Americans when they returned Okinawa to the Japanese in the 1970s. At which point both China and Taiwan objected and reasserted their claims to the islands.

Western media keep harping on about how China only started to assert its claims to the Diaoyu islands since the 1970s as some pathetic attempt to weaken Chinese claims and make it look like China is only claim the islands recently. But the fact is, the dispute didn't exist until the 1970s since I don't think either the PRC or ROC even realised the Diaoyu islands were under American administrative control until the Americans transferred that control to the Japanese and the Japanese then started using that to claim ownership of the islands.

At best the Diaoyu islands came into Japanese control because of an administrative cockup, and at worst it was a calculated decision by the Americans to start building the first and second island chains as a means to contain China.

But no matter how you cut it, the Americans had no right to give away something that was never theirs, and the Japanese should never have accepted the Diaoyu islands given the way Japan first annexed the islands. Can anyone imagine Germany accepting Austria if it was offered by the Americans in the 1970s? The Diaoyu island dispute is just one of many examples that makes the Chinese extremely dubious that the Japanese feel any remorse for what they did in WWII other than being on the loosing side, which makes their carefully measured 'apologies' sound hallow and insincere.

As for the SCS islands, well again the Chinese can point to ancient navigational and territorial maps to show that they discovered those islands first and were using them as shelter for fishermen. That is one of the very few universally accepted ways in which a country could expand their territory peacefully.

All of the ASEAN claims can pretty much be boiled down as squatters rights, whereby they sneaked onto the islands, or in the case of the Philippines, intentionally grounded a ship on a coral reef, and tried to use that presence as a claim of ownership.

Needless to say, there is absolutely no such principle in international law. Neither has there ever been a precedent that proximity and distance has any impact at all on the strength of one's claim to territory.

America is supporting Japan and the likes of the Philippines to distract China and create a pretext for its Asian pivot. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it as far as America is concerned. They only care about what's best for American interests.
 

Engineer

Major
Didn't they do that in the past? Not that distant past?
People have just been brainwashed to believe they did.

And if someone is brainwashed I doubt you could count a democratic nation with freedom of speech like ROC on the same level with PRC.
This is correct. Democratic nations such as ROC are so much worse when it comes to brainwashing than PRC. That is why people in democratic nations actually believe in a fantasy that the media is free and fair. They may as well believe the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around the Earth.

The fear is similar to Central Europe countries which were cut by the Iron Courtain by USSR after the WWII fear Russia. No need to brainwash them as they felt 'commies' on their own skin and that was enough to hate them.
There isn't a gene that makes people hate "commies", so people can't naturally hate "commies" in their own skin. The derogatory term "commies" wouldn't even exist if it weren't for people in power brainwashing others.
 

getready

Senior Member
Making noise is one thing, causing physical gridlock is a different, much more unproductive behavior. All the "democracy" and "freedom" talk being thrown around ignores the fact that most "democracies" are republics where the masses elect and are led by representatives which are only one component in the structure of the government.

This is right. The student mob have made a mockery of the political system over there, which if anyone follows the political scene there it really isn't surprising at all. Frequent Fistfights and shouting matches in parliament come to mind.
Any way this is a very good opinion posted on this blog that I usually follow. Sums up my thoughts on this quite well

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Equation

Lieutenant General
It would be really good if people actually had an idea of what they are talking about before voicing and opinion.

Chinese claims in the SCS is nothing like Japanese claims to the Diaoyu islands.

The Diaoyu islands, much like the SCS islands, were discovered by China in ancient times and claimed by China since. The Japanese annexed the islands during the first Sino-Japanese war, which was a war of aggression launched by Japan.

After Japan's defeat in WWII, it was ordered to return all territory it seized through acts of aggression, which it did. But for some nonsensical reason, the Dioayu islands were placed in administrative control of the Americans rather than the ROC, and for another even more nonsensical reason, they were 'returned' to Japan by the Americans when they returned Okinawa to the Japanese in the 1970s. At which point both China and Taiwan objected and reasserted their claims to the islands.

Western media keep harping on about how China only started to assert its claims to the Diaoyu islands since the 1970s as some pathetic attempt to weaken Chinese claims and make it look like China is only claim the islands recently. But the fact is, the dispute didn't exist until the 1970s since I don't think either the PRC or ROC even realised the Diaoyu islands were under American administrative control until the Americans transferred that control to the Japanese and the Japanese then started using that to claim ownership of the islands.

At best the Diaoyu islands came into Japanese control because of an administrative cockup, and at worst it was a calculated decision by the Americans to start building the first and second island chains as a means to contain China.

But no matter how you cut it, the Americans had no right to give away something that was never theirs, and the Japanese should never have accepted the Diaoyu islands given the way Japan first annexed the islands. Can anyone imagine Germany accepting Austria if it was offered by the Americans in the 1970s? The Diaoyu island dispute is just one of many examples that makes the Chinese extremely dubious that the Japanese feel any remorse for what they did in WWII other than being on the loosing side, which makes their carefully measured 'apologies' sound hallow and insincere.

As for the SCS islands, well again the Chinese can point to ancient navigational and territorial maps to show that they discovered those islands first and were using them as shelter for fishermen. That is one of the very few universally accepted ways in which a country could expand their territory peacefully.

All of the ASEAN claims can pretty much be boiled down as squatters rights, whereby they sneaked onto the islands, or in the case of the Philippines, intentionally grounded a ship on a coral reef, and tried to use that presence as a claim of ownership.

Needless to say, there is absolutely no such principle in international law. Neither has there ever been a precedent that proximity and distance has any impact at all on the strength of one's claim to territory.

America is supporting Japan and the likes of the Philippines to distract China and create a pretext for its Asian pivot. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it as far as America is concerned. They only care about what's best for American interests.


It doesn't matter what logic or truth there is out there, the anti-China crowd will use whatever western media circus rant to voice their hate towards PRC in their "fight against commies".:mad:
 

joshuatree

Captain
Western media keep harping on about how China only started to assert its claims to the Diaoyu islands since the 1970s as some pathetic attempt to weaken Chinese claims and make it look like China is only claim the islands recently. But the fact is, the dispute didn't exist until the 1970s since I don't think either the PRC or ROC even realised the Diaoyu islands were under American administrative control until the Americans transferred that control to the Japanese and the Japanese then started using that to claim ownership of the islands.

Yep and it can be equally said Japan only started to "administer" the islands since the 1970s when the US arbitrarily decided to give this "right" to them. Media as usual only reports what they wish to see. I see nothing but hypocrisy with recent statements like how an ADIZ should be consulted and not unilateral but look at actions like these, Kettle meet Pot, Pot meet Kettle.

I don't think PRC or ROC did not realise the islands where under American administrative control post WW2. Rather, I believe it was quietly tolerated because of the civil war between PRC and ROC and it was better than to see it under either side from each's perspective. However, when the US decided to "give" it to a third party, that's when both sides objected. ROC's objection is muted unfortunately because it can't really bite the hand that feeds it (vis-a-vis US protection from PRC). People forget that the Chinese SCS claim isn't something just recently invented and only from PRC. ROC's claims are identical and date back to its early founding pre-WW2.



That's call conjuring up a crisis where one doesn't exist. China has plenty of options aside from towing the derelict away. For one, the derelict isn't going to physical outlast China's patience. For another, China can always beach a couple of its ships on the shoal and there is nothing the Philippines can do about it. If the sailors on the derelict want to stay so much, China can also satisfy their wish by fencing up the derelict. I can go on and on, but like I said, plenty of options.

Don't even need to do this. Mix some soft power tactics into it. The main issue is to prevent the Philippines from establishing a permanent structure. When the Philippines sent the recent resupply ship, it was chock full of journalists including some foreigners. You can see they were playing the propaganda card, "see the bad CCG ships threaten us and run us over". So I say start providing replenishment to those soldiers on the LST on humanitarian grounds. Philippines can bring all the journalists they want to document. Heck, even build a communications tower in the immediate area so those soldiers can call home and watch TV to pass time. Satisfies marking territory and providing more humanitarian assistance. If they want to rotate their troops, so be it. Just limit the size of their vessel that is allowed to so it can't bring in supplies to establish a permanent structure.
 
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