China's SCS Strategy Thread

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
The problem is the constant recycling of something that is demonstrably false. The power of the PCA to hear the case is intra vires based on the provision of UNCLOS. This is a legal fact and not a matter subject to opinion.
Well, aren't you recycling something?
false or not, that depends on who is saying, isn't? me or you.

The problem is turning a news article into some kind of conspiracy event and then setting up a country as a target when Japan is not even mentioned in that article. If you don't think China will withdraw from UNCLOS, then concentrate on the actual content of that news. Instead, the ongoing discussion became an attack on another country as the primary focus rather than the content of the news article.

what article are you talking about? Do you know what my accusation of "Japanese media" is referring to?
My whole posts so far started at the Chinese MoF spokesperson's answer to WSJ's reporters question during a news conference where WSJ mentioned the "China quiting UNCLOS". The spokesperson pointed to Kyoto News (Agency) being the first outlet started the "news". see my post #2735 and I quote my post
WSJ: First question, according to Kyoto News, China MAY consider abondon UNCLOS if......

Hua: Recently I've heard such hearsays (they) are all first come from Japanese media. I wonder what is their source and purpose.
See the WSJ question. If you say this is a conspiracy, you should not question me, but ask WSJ and Kyoto News.

I am afraid that once again you argue with me on the wrong matter.
 

Brumby

Major
Well, aren't you recycling something?
false or not, that depends on who is saying, isn't? me or you.
Firstly, I am calling out a false narrative. If you stop re-cycling, then I don't have to call it out. Secondly, the issue of PCA exceeding its authority is not a matter of opinion. It is a question of law and facts. You are clearly entitled to your opinion but not to the facts.

We have debated the issue of the PCA's authority before. Post #2456
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-246
In that post I laid out the legal position of Article 9 Annex VII

In response to your subsequent post, I further outlined the legal argument in post #2461.
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-247
You did not respond to any of the points that I provided in post #2461

Instead, Solarz took up the mantle when you failed to address my rebuttal to every point that you made. I then responded to Solarz in post #2472.
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-248

In that I post of mine, I discussed extensively on Article 298 (China’s op out), Article 15 (Limitation of op out) and Annex IX and Article 298 regarding jurisdiction

Solarz’s response was rather amusing and I quote “China doesn’t care about technicalities” Post #2472.

Arbitration is a legal process and is concerning law and facts - that is the technicality of it. It is not rhetorical opinion based outside of law and facts. At every opportunity I have provided the legal arguments and facts. You instead have avoided addressing the issues and just resurface the same narrative and hence the "re-cycling".

what article are you talking about? Do you know what my accusation of "Japanese media" is referring to?
My whole posts so far started at the Chinese MoF spokesperson's answer to WSJ's reporters question during a news conference where WSJ mentioned the "China quiting UNCLOS". The spokesperson pointed to Kyoto News (Agency) being the first outlet started the "news". see my post #2735 and I quote my post

See the WSJ question. If you say this is a conspiracy, you should not question me, but ask WSJ and Kyoto News.

I am afraid that once again you argue with me on the wrong matter.

The conspiracy narrative was raised by the Chinese MOF as covered by the WSJ, that I agree. The problem is that the news is framed as a conspiracy with no evidence provided. You then carried on with two subsequent posts on the conspiracy narrative. Here is one of them :

The "China leaving UNCLOS" is a pure fabrication by Japan without any shred of credibility. I wouldn't extend thought on it at all, it is a trap, distraction and twist to turn people's focus from the dispute to portraiting of so called China disrespect law. Any discussion of any possible action towards that direction will be a "proof" that Japan is waiting for. That is how a lie becomes "truth". It is a common practice by the school bullies. They provoke and attack others, but immediately stop just before teacher arrives leaving the innocent appearing to be the attacker.

By your own reasoning and standard, this is what you said that should be expected :

You do know that it is not China leaving UNCLOS, it is Japanese Media made up China leaving UNCLOS? When and which Chinese official said or hinted leaving UNCLOS?

Read my post #2735, and google it if you want and see if you can find any such word (leaving UNCLOS) from Chinese officials.
The question to you as per your own reasoning is this. What Japanese official said or hinted that China was leaving UNCLOS to qualify as a fabrication by Japan?

In fact, if we go directly to the source of the Kyoto article :
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China has told diplomats of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations that it does not rule out withdrawing from the convention, often referred to as the constitution of the oceans, if that happens, the sources said.

Such a statement hardly qualifies as a conspiracy theory because nations always look at options and leaving is within the realm of plausibility.

In fact when I googled this issue, there was a news article from Global Times dated 3/3/2016 that talked about this as one of the option.

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3/3/2016

Whether China ultimately wants to continue to be a party to UNCLOS should be the result of a legal and political cost-benefit analysis. The Convention itself opens the way for China to leave the Convention and it would have good reasons to do so if its territorial sovereignty was undermined by a decision of an arbitral tribunal established under the Convention.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Firstly, I am calling out a false narrative. If you stop re-cycling, then I don't have to call it out. Secondly, the issue of PCA exceeding its authority is not a matter of opinion. It is a question of law and facts. You are clearly entitled to your opinion but not to the facts.

We have debated the issue of the PCA's authority before. Post #2456
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-246
In that post I laid out the legal position of Article 9 Annex VII

In response to your subsequent post, I further outlined the legal argument in post #2461.
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-247
You did not respond to any of the points that I provided in post #2461

Instead, Solarz took up the mantle when you failed to address my rebuttal to every point that you made. I then responded to Solarz in post #2472.
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinas-scs-strategy-thread.t3118/page-248

In that I post of mine, I discussed extensively on Article 298 (China’s op out), Article 15 (Limitation of op out) and Annex IX and Article 298 regarding jurisdiction

Solarz’s response was rather amusing and I quote “China doesn’t care about technicalities” Post #2472.

Arbitration is a legal process and is concerning law and facts - that is the technicality of it. It is not rhetorical opinion based outside of law and facts. At every opportunity I have provided the legal arguments and facts. You instead have avoided addressing the issues and just resurface the same narrative and hence the "re-cycling".



The conspiracy narrative was raised by the Chinese MOF as covered by the WSJ, that I agree. The problem is that the news is framed as a conspiracy with no evidence provided. You then carried on with two subsequent posts on the conspiracy narrative. Here is one of them :



By your own reasoning and standard, this is what you said that should be expected :


The question to you as per your own reasoning is this. What Japanese official said or hinted that China was leaving UNCLOS to qualify as a fabrication by Japan?

In fact, if we go directly to the source of the Kyoto article :
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Such a statement hardly qualifies as a conspiracy theory because nations always look at options and leaving is within the realm of plausibility.

In fact when I googled this issue, there was a news article from Global Times dated 3/3/2016 that talked about this as one of the option.

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3/3/2016
I see you are making two points. I will give the brief answers here.

1. Repetition or Recycling the opinions, either you or me.

When I used the word "Recycling" on you, it was because you responded directly to me (my post), not in a separate post. So my words "stop recycling" is about you stop recycling your opinion to me as none of us can convince each other to save both of us typing. Is that good for both us? Please read that post again.

You have the right to repeat your opinion, you have the right to call my opinion false in this thread. So do I, fair enough? But I am merely asking you not to recycle it to me personally, not trying to stop you speaking (recycling or not) in this thread.

2. The conspiracy/fabrication matter.
You quoted globaltimes which is the source of Kyoto article. We know globaltimes is not Chinese MoF which speak for China officially. There are many Chinese holding very different opinions, some in this forum is even more radical than globaltimes. Will you say these radical people represent China? No, you can't. Neither can you assert globaltimes speaks for China. No matter what you think of globaltimes's background, it is only a news paper, similar to WSJ, Kyoto news.

So if you or WSJ or Kyoto news want to argue or question the official stance of China based on globaltimes' article, you should go to globaltimes office, not ask the MoF.

I did not use the word "conspiracy", I used "fabrication". Fabrication means made up and not true. And not true means it is not China's (official) stance. As far as China's MoF's concern, it is a fabrication (of China's stance) on Kyoto News' part when it used "China" meaning the state instead of "some Chinese news outlet suggests". MoF does not take responsibility of globaltimes' words, just like it doesn't take responsibility of what I am saying here, nor is US state department responsible for what you say here. At least I would not treat your words as the US official stance, and I would not put a question to US state department spokesperson to verify whether your words represent U.S.

So I don't see why it is not a fabrication from the position of China (the state).
 
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Brumby

Major
I see you are making two points. I will give the brief answers here.

1. Repetition or Recycling the opinions, either you or me.

When I used the word "Recycling" on you, it was because you responded directly to me (my post), not in a separate post. So my words "stop recycling" is about you stop recycling your opinion to me as none of us can convince each other to save both of us typing. Is that good for both us? Please read that post again.
Frankly my objective is not to convince you but to push back a false narrative that you have been repeating. Your narrative has been proven false by the specific provisions within UNCLOS, the facts of which you have not attempted with any rebuttal. Instead you just repeat the same narrative. Maintaining a position that you are not convinced is not a passport to just repeat it. If you don't like to be called out for something that is not true then don't repeat the lie.

You have the right to repeat your opinion, you have the right to call my opinion false in this thread. So do I, fair enough? But I am merely asking you not to recycle it to me personally, not trying to stop you speaking (recycling or not) in this thread.
I have no idea what you are saying. If you are the one bringing up the issue shouldn't you be taking responsibility in dealing with it? When did you get an immunity pass on this forum with the freedom to express without being held accountable?

2. The conspiracy/fabrication matter.
You quoted globaltimes which is the source of Kyoto article.
No I did not. Please read my comments. Where did I say that the Globaltimes is the source of the Kyoto article? Please don't change the focus or the nature of the issue.

We know globaltimes is not Chinese MoF which speak for China officially. There are many Chinese holding very different opinions, some in this forum is even more radical than globaltimes. Will you say these radical people represent China? No, you can't. Neither can you assert globaltimes speaks for China. No matter what you think of globaltimes's background, it is only a news paper, similar to WSJ, Kyoto news.
You are saying things I did not say. I did not say globaltimes represent China Please don' change the subject of the conversation. I was merely saying the option to leave UNCLOS is a topic of conversation even within China.

So if you or WSJ or Kyoto news want to argue or question the official stance of China based on globaltimes' article, you should go to globaltimes office, not ask the MoF.
You have a habit of creating a narrative of your own imagination and then try to divert the conversation to it. It doesn't work on me.

I did not use the word "conspiracy", I used "fabrication". Fabrication means made up and not true. And not true means it is not China's (official) stance. As far as China's MoF's concern, it is a fabrication (of China's stance) on Kyoto News' part when it used "China" meaning the state instead of "some Chinese news outlet suggests". MoF does not take responsibility of globaltimes' words, just like it doesn't take responsibility of what I am saying here, nor is US state department responsible for what you say here. At least I would not treat your words as the US official stance, and I would not put a question to US state department spokesperson to verify whether your words represent U.S.
So when did such news from an outlet in Kyoto become fabrication by Japan? According to your own standard, which Japanese official said it that became a fabrication by Japan? This is a question that you have avoided answering.

So I don't see why it is not a fabrication from the position of China (the state).
A fabrication is a lie. How can you be sure the conversation that was reported originally by the Kyoto news outlet is false? The most you can claim is that it is unconfirmed. An MOF official stating that China is not quitting UNCLOS and the conversation reported by the Kyoto news are not mutually exclusive events. A policy decision to quit may not have been taken but that doesn't mean conversations expressing intention to quit as one of the option need not necessarily be false.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Frankly my objective is not to convince you but to push back a false narrative that you have been repeating. Your narrative has been proven false by the specific provisions within UNCLOS, the facts of which you have not attempted with any rebuttal. Instead you just repeat the same narrative. Maintaining a position that you are not convinced is not a passport to just repeat it. If you don't like to be called out for something that is not true then don't repeat the lie.


I have no idea what you are saying. If you are the one bringing up the issue shouldn't you be taking responsibility in dealing with it? When did you get an immunity pass on this forum with the freedom to express without being held accountable?


No I did not. Please read my comments. Where did I say that the Globaltimes is the source of the Kyoto article? Please don't change the focus or the nature of the issue.


You are saying things I did not say. I did not say globaltimes represent China Please don' change the subject of the conversation. I was merely saying the option to leave UNCLOS is a topic of conversation even within China.


You have a habit of creating a narrative of your own imagination and then try to divert the conversation to it. It doesn't work on me.


So when did such news from an outlet in Kyoto become fabrication by Japan? According to your own standard, which Japanese official said it that became a fabrication by Japan? This is a question that you have avoided answering.


A fabrication is a lie. How can you be sure the conversation that was reported originally by the Kyoto news outlet is false? The most you can claim is that it is unconfirmed. An MOF official stating that China is not quitting UNCLOS and the conversation reported by the Kyoto news are not mutually exclusive events. A policy decision to quit may not have been taken but that doesn't mean conversations expressing intention to quit as one of the option need not necessarily be false.

To be honest, this between you and me has lasted for too long, I myself has lost paitient to continue wth you, here is why, just two examples from this post of yours. It shows how you miss-read, ignore my points and constantly drift issue away.

Examle 1
This is your question
So when did such news from an outlet in Kyoto become fabrication by Japan?
This is my texts that your question pointed at
it is a fabrication (of China's stance) on Kyoto News' part when it used

I did say that these News are not representing their states, did I.

If you are not deliberately substitute my words with yours, then I suspect many of your argument with me were due to your miss-reading, miss-interpretation or simply ignored my contexts.

Example 2
Your words,
How can you be sure the conversation that was reported originally by the Kyoto news outlet is false?

You got it wrong in a simple logic. If someone make a statement, someone is responsible to prove it, that is why I am ure the Kyoto words is false utill proven otherwise. It can only be truth if Kyoto provided referenences, name of sources.

You shouldn't shift the burden off the shoulder of "accuser".

Honestly, it is very messy and confusing in talking with you and I don't gain any knowledge from conversation with you, not even an constructive educational oppositional one.

Frankly my objective is not to convince you but to push back a false narrative that you have been repeating.
I have told you that you have the right to do so in the thread, BUT sticking to my face is neither mature nor convincing. So say what ever you want in the thread, but stay away from replying my post. Or my future answer will be very short.
 

ahojunk

Senior Member
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Hugh White
Professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University in Canberra

Two scenarios are possible: China ignores the ruling and carries on as before. Or an irate Beijing escalates the tension in the region, calling Washington's bluff.

Any day now the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague will hand down its judgment in the case brought by the Philippines about the validity of some of China's claims in the South China Sea.

Attention is focused mostly on the tribunal's ruling on Beijing's claim to some kind of ill-defined ownership of all the waters that lie within the famous "nine-dash line".

The judgment has been eagerly awaited by those in the region and beyond - especially in Washington - who hope and expect to see China's claims rejected by the court. But what difference will the judgment make, even assuming - as most experts do - that it will go against China on the key issues? Beijing has refused to acknowledge the court's jurisdiction, took no part in the hearings, and has repeatedly declared that it will ignore its findings.

Would that do China any harm? America, with its friends and allies, think that a formal ruling by an internationally recognised court will increase the moral and diplomatic pressure on China to cease pressing its territorial and maritime claims so assertively. Washington seems convinced that faced with a negative judgment, Beijing would finally decide that the diplomatic damage to its standing in South-east Asia has become unbearable.

But the most recent evidence all points the other way. A couple of weeks ago, China apparently forced Asean foreign ministers into a highly embarrassing retraction of a relatively mildly worded joint statement alluding to the South China Sea as "an issue in the relations and cooperation between Asean and China". The statement was hurriedly withdrawn just three hours after it was issued. That hardly suggests that China feels the need to start lowering the diplomatic temperature.

Then last week, China allowed tensions to escalate with South-east Asia's most important power, Indonesia. Beijing vigorously protested against Indonesia's robust response to Chinese fishing vessels operating in what Jakarta claims is Indonesia's Exclusive Economic Zone around the Natuna Islands, but which also fall within Beijing's nine-dash line claim.

China's reaction in turn prompted surprisingly stern actions from Indonesia. President Joko Widodo ordered the Indonesian National Armed Forces (TNI) to deploy more forces to the region and made a high-profile visit there himself with senior Cabinet ministers to underline Jakarta's seriousness. But Beijing doesn't seem too worried.

Again, there is no sign here that China's leaders are starting to feel the diplomatic pressure.

And that raises the obvious question: What happens next if China simply ignores the court's ruling? In particular, what does Washington do? Clearly Washington is prepared for trouble. Over the last few months, it has responded to what it sees as Beijing's destabilising militarisation of the situation by sending substantial new forces of its own into the region. This has culminated in the deployment of two US aircraft carrier strike groups off the Philippines in recent days.

This is the biggest overt display of American military power in the Western Pacific since it sent two carriers to face down China in the Taiwan Crisis of 1996. It is plainly intended to send an unmistakable message of Washington's resolve.

But resolve to do what, exactly?

Let's look at two scenarios. In one, China does nothing more in response to the court's judgment than issue a strongly worded rejection. It does not back off from anything it has been doing, but takes no immediate, overt additional steps to expand its presence or strengthen its position in the contested areas. In this case, without any provocative Chinese actions to respond to, it is hard to see what America could do with all the military force it has assembled.

In the other scenario, China decides it has to make a more forceful response to an adverse judgment in The Hague. For example, it might announce the imposition of an Air Defence Identification Zone over the South China Sea, the way it did in the East China Sea in 2013.

Or it might start to build an artificial island and create a new base on Scarborough Shoals, as it has done on other features in recent years. China seized Scarborough Shoals, which lie quite close to Manila, from the Philippines in 2012.

The United States has plainly warned China against taking either of these steps, and its big military deployments are obviously designed to back these warnings up. They appear to send the message that America would be willing to meet with armed force any move by China to further extend its hold in the South China Sea.

That kind of none-too-subtle threat worked 20 years ago over Taiwan. But back then, China had no credible way to sink a US carrier, and the economic costs of a rupture with Beijing seemed manageable. Things are very different now: Any military clash with today's well-armed and economically vital China would carry almost incalculable strategic risks and economic costs.

It is hard to imagine the cool and calculating President Barack Obama accepting such costs and risks. That a new president will be elected in November and in office in the White House in January 2017 merely adds to the uncertainty for Washington.

That means the threat implied by America's high-profile military deployments may just be a bluff. And this raises the question: What happens if Beijing tries to call Washington's bluff, and presses ahead with a highly provocative move like those mentioned above?

Washington would then face a disastrous choice. Either it backs down, thereby acknowledging China's growing regional ascendency and the corresponding decline of US leadership, or it launches into an armed clash which might well escalate into a major conflict. Would Beijing risk this by calling Washington's bluff?

Well, let's hope not, but the possibility is there, and it makes the situation potentially very dangerous indeed.

•The writer is professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University in Canberra.
 
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ahojunk

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Source: Xinhua |2016-06-28 10:22:57| Editor: huaxia

THE HAGUE, June 27 (Xinhua) -- Peaceful negotiation is the best solution to the disputes between China and the Philippines over the South China Sea, given the historical background and the complexity of the issue, said two former judges of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on Monday.

The decision of an arbitral tribunal to allow a mandatory arbitration case unilaterally initiated by the Philippines will not help easing tensions in the region, according to Abdul G. Koroma, who served two terms as a judge at the ICJ.

"There is an obligation in international law, to resolve all disputes between states peacefully and you may achieve such an objective on the basis of negotiation, arbitration or judicial settlement. However, on such a complicated matter regarding so many littoral states along the South China Sea, and given the nature of the disputes, I think negotiation is the best method to solve such disputes," said Koroma.

Pemmaraju Sreenivasa Rao, former Chairman of the United Nations (UN) International Law Commission and former judge ad hoc at the ICJ, shared the same opinion.

"Negotiation is the only best method for this kind of disputes, particularly with so many difficult features coming from a long background and history," said Rao.

"I would rather have the parties sit together to discuss their common future to share, common resources to share, and common solutions to poverty and maritime environment," Rao added.

The two judges both took part in the third UN Conference on the Law of the Sea from 1973 to 1982, which led to the adoption of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

"It was our luck and privilege to have seen the great progress of negotiation to settle matters with different partners towards peace, security, development and cooperation," said Rao.

"It is written in the convention that disputes between two parties should be settled with peaceful means," he added.

"The concept of negotiation appears in the United Nations' Charter, and it also appears in the UNCLOS. It is not as if it is contrary to the law; it is also legal to negotiate, to find a peaceful solution to a dispute," said Koroma.

China has reiterated its stance of non acceptance of and non participation in the case, which is in line with international law according to the experts, as China has excluded territorial and delimitation disputes from mandatory arbitration in the reservations it made in agreeing to submit to the UNCLOS.

Koroma explained that it is up to the sovereignty of a state to decide whether it wants to embark on or initiate third-party processing or not, and a state has the right to reject an arbitration decision on the basis of international law if the jurisdiction is questionable.

Rao added that there's a lot of room for parties in the convention,therefore "I don't think the tribunal can foreclose any of these options."

The former judges also drew attention to the people living in the region, urging relevant parties to put the interests of the people at first.

"Eventually all the littoral states have to live together; the people have to live together. You have to find a method of settlement that you can live with," Koroma said. "Negotiation will certainly give the best result possible."
 

taxiya

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Hugh White
Professor of strategic studies at the Australian National University in Canberra

Two scenarios are possible: China ignores the ruling and carries on as before. Or an irate Beijing escalates the tension in the region, calling Washington's bluff.

I like the author's approach, making his assessment of one's possible move by wearing one's shoes. It is like a sober chess player.

But I would rather see the two scenarios as the same. They are essentially two sides of the same coin. China's ignoring would be seen as calling Washington's bluff from Washington's lenses. On the other hand, a Chinese "de-escalation" would mean China somehow cares about the ruling, albeit not openly.

So the question is more of which side of the coin will be turned up. The notion of "China ignores the ruling and carries on as before." is actually not a possibility by the author's thought, but rather a fact since that is what China is doing so far, not being part of the whole proceeding.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I like the author's approach, making his assessment of one's possible move by wearing one's shoes. It is like a sober chess player.

But I would rather see the two scenarios as the same. They are essentially two sides of the same coin. China's ignoring would be seen as calling Washington's bluff from Washington's lenses. On the other hand, a Chinese "de-escalation" would mean China somehow cares about the ruling, albeit not openly.

So the question is more of which side of the coin will be turned up. The notion of "China ignores the ruling and carries on as before." is actually not a possibility by the author's thought, but rather a fact since that is what China is doing so far, not being part of the whole proceeding.

The funny thing is, the PH side thinks that a ruling in their favor will give them leverage in negotiations with China, and given Duterte's overtures, I think the ruling will be rather irrelevant and the two countries will start a reconciliation process.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
The funny thing is, the PH side thinks that a ruling in their favor will give them leverage in negotiations with China, and given Duterte's overtures, I think the ruling will be rather irrelevant and the two countries will start a reconciliation process.
It is delusional to take something that one don't care as leverage.

I do expect some words from the PH side regarding the final "ruling" BEFORE any reconciliation between PH and CN begin. Basically some sort of words that can be interpreted as PH "withdraw", "abandon" the "ruling". This is not being mean. The reason is that, without such words, regardless what ever sweets or concession Duterte gave China under the table, on the table PH has the "ruling" on her side and She never returns to the "bi-lateral negotiation". That position is nothing China can accept for a re-approachment, it is both a principle. Accepting the re-approachment without PH "renouncing the ruling" would be seen and used in the possible future event as China's acceptance of the "ruling", a very big trap.

Of course, I don't expect PH to say "we withdraw our case", but something can be interpreted to that purpose (such as a "both sides re-affirm the desire of addressing the dispute through bilateral negotiation") would be necessary, similar to the "apology/regret in the spy plane incident" thing.
 
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