China's SCS Strategy Thread

Blackstone

Brigadier
I take this as you conceding, given the fact that sailing is obviously not the same as spying. Saying it is allowable to do X which is legal anyway has no relevance as to whether China can respond to illegal activity of Y.

To relate this back to topic with regards to strategies, China should continue doing what she is doing. As we have seen so far, arguments that claim China's activities are contravening International Laws simply do not stand up to scrutiny.

No, I don't concede to China's notion of what's allowable in international waters. I only agree US will continue do what is generally accepted practices while in international waters, be it sailing straight through or gathering intelligence outside 12 mile zones, regardless of how loud China complains. But China has the right to complain.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
There is no need for China to defend its actions that are legitimate in the first place. The burden of proof lies on those that accuse China of contravening International Laws, not on China.

Except China is the one complaining about US spying on it while in international waters, and since China is the accuser, it must prove its case in international court.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
All this arguing is pointless and ultimately meaningless.

'International law' is what the world's dominant powers say it is, and they 'reinterpret' it at will to suit their own ends when needed.

International 'law' is not really law as any of us would understand it, it is not really a rules or principle bases system with an independent judiciary body to interpret what the law actually says and pass judgement on matters and disputes. Every time the UN has tried to introduce something to that effect, the United States either opposes it or 'opts out'. That should say all there needs to be said about just how much those that keep harping on about International Law truly feels about the principle of law and order in terms of international relations.

'International law' in the form it is currently practiced is just the world's top powers telling everyone else how to behave or they will strangle your economy (Cuba, Iran, North Korea) or bomb you back to the Stone Age (Iraq, Lybia, Serbia).

It is pointless trying to argue the merits or demerits of any single issue because even the most compelling argument gets trumped by Tomahawks.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry guys, I gave very specific instructions about stopping the ongoing round robin about the EEZ and UNCLOS relating to the SCS. Some members have ignored that and continued right on...and others have allowed it to lead to meaningless arguements.

Those posts since the warning have been removed. Two members (Engineer and Blackstone) will receive one week vacations from SD as a result of not heeding the warning. Two more (Brumby and Solarz) are getting warnings for engaging in meaningless arguments along the periphery of that discussion.

If anymore of this acrimony continues, more will be suspended and the thread will be closed until people can cool off and continue.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>> END MODERATOR'S INSTRUCTIONS <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 
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SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Always a shame to see good members get themselves into trouble, but fair and generous warnings were given and ignored.

Back to topic, someone has already raised the question of the implications of what seems likely to be the permission of ongoing open transit through Indonesian territorial waters.

This is a real game changer for the SCS, Western Pacific and Indian Oceans in general and we should start to examine them in more detail, especially in the light of rumours of base facilities in Tonga and other Islands etc.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Always a shame to see good members get themselves into trouble, but fair and generous warnings were given and ignored.

Back to topic, someone has already raised the question of the implications of what seems likely to be the permission of ongoing open transit through Indonesian territorial waters.

This is a real game changer for the SCS, Western Pacific and Indian Oceans in general and we should start to examine them in more detail, especially in the light of rumours of base facilities in Tonga and other Islands etc.

This really shouldn't be surprising. Indonesia and Malaysia have smaller overlapping claim than Vietnam and the Philippines, and much better relationships with China. China has been courting those two for a while now to prevent any consensus in ASEAN from forming. If anyone IS surprised by this move it's probably because everyone has kept their eye off the ball with all the noise over Vietnam and the Philippines and have forgotten that other countries are involved in the island disputes too, not just with China, but with each other. People forget that while ASEAN is meant to build consensus amongst the SEA countries, what underlies it are far more fractious relationships. China recognizes this and understands that there is an appeal for some countries in using China as leverage against other countries when disputing resources and other economic and security issues.
 

port_08

Junior Member
This really shouldn't be surprising. Indonesia and Malaysia have smaller overlapping claim than Vietnam and the Philippines, and much better relationships with China. China has been courting those two for a while now to prevent any consensus in ASEAN from forming. If anyone IS surprised by this move it's probably because everyone has kept their eye off the ball with all the noise over Vietnam and the Philippines and have forgotten that other countries are involved in the island disputes too, not just with China, but with each other. People forget that while ASEAN is meant to build consensus amongst the SEA countries, what underlies it are far more fractious relationships. China recognizes this and understands that there is an appeal for some countries in using China as leverage against other countries when disputing resources and other economic and security issues.

We're seeing now China and Indonesia is trying to bring their military relationship further and perhaps use it as counterweight to US Phillippines relationship. I'm sure all the parties have certain interest at play and foreseeable more such alliances will be form. Who knows, future China will support Indonesia claims towards some island belonging to the Philippines or what now, supply more arms to their rebels, support Indonesia stance against Australia or whatever...who knows...the point is, China cannot say non interference as their doctrine, as growing global power, with interest everywhere...they have to change from non-interference, to "slight" interference....who knows future, direct intereference (War like invasion into another country)....so step by step...the bar of intereference is raised...
 

solarz

Brigadier
We're seeing now China and Indonesia is trying to bring their military relationship further and perhaps use it as counterweight to US Phillippines relationship. I'm sure all the parties have certain interest at play and foreseeable more such alliances will be form. Who knows, future China will support Indonesia claims towards some island belonging to the Philippines or what now, supply more arms to their rebels, support Indonesia stance against Australia or whatever...who knows...the point is, China cannot say non interference as their doctrine, as growing global power, with interest everywhere...they have to change from non-interference, to "slight" interference....who knows future, direct intereference (War like invasion into another country)....so step by step...the bar of intereference is raised...

Chinese non-interference is directed toward other nations' domestic issues. It is certainly not meant to imply that they will not take part in geopolitical maneuvers.
 

joshuatree

Captain
I've always pondered over this strategy and wondered how any panel could make any ruling when the concept of EEZ is dependent upon sovereignty and the request to judge without touching on sovereignty is illogical. Also, not regarding the other claimants further makes any judgement incomplete at best.

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As China and the Philippines get set to square off in The Hague next month over competing maritime jurisdictional claims, an independent legal expert has cast doubt over Manila's case.

The dispute centres on China's territorial demand encompassing most of the South China Sea/West Philippine Sea, with the Philippines holding that a sizeable chunk of that claim infringes on its own jurisdiction.

Beijing has so far held the advantage, using its political clout to obstruct any outside involvement and vastly superior security forces to inch forward its position through the use of aggressive tactics.

Manila responded in January 2013 by lodging a case before the Permanent Court of Arbitration, an intergovernmental organisation established in 1899 to resolve disputes between states. The arbitrator's involvement is derived from the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, to which both China and the Philippines adhere, though China is snubbing the process under an opt-out clause. This strategy, which others have employed, neither blocks the proceedings nor prejudices the outcome.

Manila was directed by the court of arbitration to "fully address all issues" in its submission, due by March 30 - including "matters relating to the jurisdiction of the arbitral tribunal, the admissibility of the Philippines' claim as well as the merits of the dispute".

Central to Manila's petition is that it seeks no explicit ruling on sovereignty claims, which the court of arbitration is not empowered to resolve under the UN convention. Rather, it wants to clarify several core treaty concepts that would undercut China's ambition. However, a prominent legal scholar with no direct involvement has argued in a recent paper that the court of arbitration lacks the jurisdiction to hear the case. Dr Stefan Talmon, co-director of the Institute for Public International Law at the University of Bonn, argues that "none of the 13 points [put to the arbitrator by the Philippines] either gives rise to a dispute concerning the interpretation or application of the convention or can be addressed without considering matters which are or have been validly removed from the jurisdiction of the tribunal".

Dr Talmon notes that Manila wants the tribunal to affirm that both China and the Philippines have certain rights under the UN convention in regard to maritime areas.

But Beijing has never disagreed with such "general and abstract declarations", while the exclusive application of the convention to defining such rights has not been established.

Beyond that, Manila's request for a determination that certain disputed maritime areas "form part of the continental shelf of the Philippines" would prejudice the rights of Vietnam and Taiwan. Consequently, Dr Talmon says, the tribunal cannot render an absolute decision.

Whether Beijing can rightfully exclude Philippine fishing vessels from waters adjacent to certain contentious areas or whether it can build "artificial islands" atop reefs will depend on how exclusive economic zones are delineated, he points out. This decision is beyond the tribunal's mandate, as it requires agreement on sovereignty over disputed land features.

"This would not be the first time that an arbitral tribunal established under Annex VII to [the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea] has decided that it is without jurisdiction to rule on the merits of the dispute. The tribunal established to hear the case brought by the Philippines against China would be well advised to do the same," Dr Talmon concludes.

A high-powered legal team assembled by the Philippines is doubtless in the final stage of preparing arcane points to argue otherwise.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Interesting take by Dr. Talmon on UN Tribunal's lack of standing in the Philippines v. China suit.

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Stefan Talmon: From the point of view of international law, this step is ineffective. The tribunal can only rule on questions to do with the interpretation and application of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS). The question is: Is this dispute between the Philippines and China really a dispute about interpretation and application? Even if this is the case, there exists the possibility for states to remove certain disputes from the jurisdiction of the international courts. China did this when it became a contracting party to the convention. Therefore, this dispute is not within the tribunal's jurisdiction. The Philippines' move is purely political.
Meanwhile, there's a claim Bejing offered Manila "incentives" to settle out of court.

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MANILA, Philippines – In a last-ditch attempt to derail a historic case, China has offered the Philippines incentives such as the mutual withdrawal of ships from the disputed Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal, sources told Rappler.

China wants to stop the Philippines from submitting its written pleading, called a memorial, to the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (ITLOS) by March 30, these sources said.

Asked for comment, the Chinese Embassy said it has “no information to offer” about this.

But former national security adviser Roilo Golez said China is “worried” about the memorial. “In fact, they're even offering a carrot so that we don't submit on the deadline,” he said.

The “carrot,” he said, is the offer to mutually withdraw from the shoal in the contested West Philippine Sea (South China Sea).

Golez told Rappler he got this information from one of the back channels in the maritime dispute, but refused to reveal his source...
 
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