China's SCS Strategy Thread

[Engineer]

You were asking about consequences -- all you've done here is to explain that the Philipino ships can be risk averse when they want to be.

I asked about real consequences (for the Filipinos to provoke the destroyer), you admitted no shot would be fired. So, no real consequence. That should have been the end, but you then went off on a tangent claiming the Filipinos to be risk averse. That rest of my reply which you quoted is directed at your claim.

Mass means one can come off less poorly in a collision of it happens, and speed means you are still able to leave the fray (or not enter it to begin with) when an opportunity presents itself.

No one is denying mass and speed couldn't be advantageous. They aren't advantageous in every situation, and they clearly didn't do much for DDG164 in this situation.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Rules of engagement are set by higher level commanders.
A single CO going gung-ho and going against their ROEs just means a CO who has made a mistake and is going to be reprimanded.

I am saying your assumption is unlikely to be applicable on PLAN ships, because a captain in PLAN does not have the kind of supreme authority as their western counterparts to go gung-ho. Could multiple people go gung-ho? Sure. Likely? Not so much. If you can't understand my posts, then you debated with Reddit retards for far too long or you are purposely being obtuse or both.


————————

It seems people prefer to believe in some alternate realities where PLAN officers enjoy making absurd decisions than to entertain the possibility that the Filipinos may have employed a correct tactic. Everyone be like "even retards know you don't risk a destroyer in playing bumper cars" then assume Filipinos would be too stupid to have the same realization to exploit the situation.

 

[LawLeadsToPeace]

As many have mentioned, collisions happen among even the best of the world’s navies. There are many possible reasons for this accident such as miscommunication, lack of common TTP's between the CCG and PLAN personnel, miscalculations, and etc. The lack of TTP’s for both PLAN and CCG ships engaging in these missions is probably the cause given how the two ships weren’t working in sync. It’s a painful and embarrassing lesson, but as they say, “rules are written in blood”.

 

[siegecrossbow]

China has been doing similar intercepts since like 2012. The fact that this has only just happened recently is surprising.

 

[LawLeadsToPeace]

Also, while many users here love to bag on specific countries, those countries’ militaries still have a vote. The Filipino captain of that ship was gutsy and acted in an unorthodox manner.

China has been doing similar intercepts since like 2012. The fact that this has only just happened recently is surprising.

This accident surprised me as well, but some weak points take awhile to manifest themselves.

 

[Reclaimer]

I'm curious, if a Chinese, Russian or Iranian vessel were to zigzag in front of an American destroyer outside of US territorial waters, what would be their response? Would they have some excuse to justify deadly force? Is there some non-wartime historical incident where deadly force was used in this situation?

 

[siegecrossbow]

I'm curious, if a Chinese, Russian or Iranian vessel were to zigzag in front of an American destroyer outside of US territorial waters, what would be their response? Would they have some excuse to justify deadly force? Is there some non-wartime historical incident where deadly force was used in this situation?

Usually US just sends coast guard to escort since naval destroyers are usually stationed overseas. I do think that the Soviets had a near collision incident when U.S. naval ships entered Soviet territorial waters

 

[BMUFL]

Okay, so

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

pointed out something that I haven't considered before, which is that PLAN warship is there to signal seriousness of PRC's commitment to that specific territorial claim, without escalating to pure military ops ("to blur the line between civilian and military", so to speak).

Yes, the ramming looks riduculous, but at least there is plausible deniability that "it was an accident". Whereas shooting is usually considered an act of war.

However, someone clearly screwed up here. Either they haven't practiced this type of thing enough or someone got hyperfocused on one thing. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Inque]

This comment has to be the stupidest comment I have read in a long time. And I have been reading a lot of brain dead comments from our Jai Hind friends on Reddit and other platforms.

Superpower is what exactly to you? A country that can just smash their perceived enemies at a minor inconvenience and provocations? If the kind of actions you envisioned actually work, then Russia, India, Israel, and the mightiest of them all, the U.S. wouldn't have waged those useless wars for meagre return to their blood, treasury, and prestige. It's only their preponderance stockpile of Nukes (RUSSIA & U.S. with India, Pakistan, Israel, France, U.K. and N.Korea holding minimal stock piles) that countries have not went all out against them.

The use of force and the application of violence isn't not something that should be trivially applied nor be the first course of action to be recommended as satisfying it is to some and many here on this forum myself included. If you're still gung-ho about the use and utility of force ask Russia, Ukraine, India, the U.S. and Israel how's their actions working out for them.

Please pay attention to the context. I was replying to this comment that was supportive of China continuing its aggressive behaviour. I'm not sure how you interpreted mine as being "gung-ho" or supportive of aggressive usages of force.

China's SCS Strategy Thread

Well it's not a hunch so much as it's modus operandi that naval ships generally don't get involved in direct action where collisions are likely/standard. If anything they stay quite well far away. I find it difficult to entertain the idea of seeking to provoke a naval vessel to enter the fray...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

 

[imjustbrowsing]

Okay, so

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

pointed out something that I haven't considered before, which is that PLAN warship is there to signal seriousness of PRC's commitment to that specific territorial claim, without escalating to pure military ops ("to blur the line between civilian and military", so to speak).

Yes, the ramming looks riduculous, but at least there is plausible deniability that "it was an accident". Whereas shooting is usually considered an act of war.

However, someone clearly screwed up here. Either they haven't practiced this type of thing enough or someone got hyperfocused on one thing. Time will tell, I guess.

Makes sense but I still can't wrap my head around why it needed to be so close to the action. I mean it's a 7000 ton destroyer - I'm sure the Filipinos would've still seen it if it just trailed the CCG instead of sailing alongside which was just an accident waiting to happen

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Usually US just sends coast guard to escort since naval destroyers are usually stationed overseas. I do think that the Soviets had a near collision incident when U.S. naval ships entered Soviet territorial waters

Not just near, but actual, intended bumping (Black Sea near Sevastopol, 1988):




But given that all the ships involved (2 American and 2 Soviet) are proper warships and the manner of which the collisions occured, the damages were relatively minor.