China's Greatest Fear: Dead and Buried Like the Soviet Union (Closed)

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Equation

Lieutenant General
The bottom line is this: China conquered Tibet (multiple times), a nation and people who clearly did not wish to be conquered. China is now assimilating Tibet, possibly against its wishes and enforcing an identity upon Tibet and Tibetans, possibly against their wishes. None of you want to know whether this "possibly" is a "probably" or even an "actuality", because what you want is to achieve Chinese assimilation regardless of how Tibetans themselves feel. I also suspect that you people are utterly hypocritical in your beliefs, such that if China was the one who was conquered and under assimilation, you would NOT feel that assimilation by the conqueror was moral or just and would oppose it vehemently, and call anyone who cooperated with the conquerors "traitors".

Bottom line is this: Tibet is NOT conquered land. North America, South America, and Australia and New Zealand are conquered land. You just simply don't want Tibetans to be a part of the PRC. Tibet and Tibetans history are being recorded and study far more aggressively than in any Western academia or even by Tibetan themselves. The Chinese Ministry of culture, history, sociology, anthropology, architecture, linguist, music, and language. As a result, this retains and sustain the culture of the Tibetans. Meanwhile Westerners are trying to spread their religious institutional beliefs through out the world and you are not concern about that? That tells me that your priority is messed up. That means you are just trolling to get China to be separated into many parts therefore weaker and submittal to your favorite whatever religious cult that you belong to.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Since when did Tibet became a nation before China? Your weak arguments and claims has no legitimacy in history. You are now copying by words and perspectives because you have NOTHING left to prove that Tibet should be separated from China. "You know nothing Jon Snow." No matter how much you hate the CPC or the PRC at this state you and your disgusting kind WILL NEVER tear us apart. You can try die by fighting us and we will still be here. There are more of us than you.
Me and my disgusting kind, eh? Winter is coming for you if you continue along this path, I have no doubt. In any case, your nearly total ignorance of history is not a reason for you to have a tempest in a teacup. The entire internet is at your fingertips and yet you are obviously too goddamn lazy to fact-check Tibetan history for yourself, and instead have decided to double down on your hilariously ignorant nerdraging temper tantrum. Here, let me help you, because it sounds like you're probably too shaken with nerdrage to think straight right now:
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You will find sources noting the establishment of the Tibetan Empire by the 7th century (starting with the reign of Namri Songtsen), with externally verifiable sources (e.g. Chinese). Please note that the Yuan dynasty started during the 13th century. The Tibetans even managed to sack Chang'an (X'ian) in 763AD during the reign of Trisong Detsen, which at the time was the capital city of the Tang. Peace was not declared between the Tibetan Empire and the Tang dynasty until 821AD. The next time you try to make one of your hilariously and massively ignorant 'historical' claims, do try to fact-check it first before you make yourself look like an even bigger fool.

Greatest extent of Tibetan Empire.jpg

Timeline of Tibet.png

Hmmm...just like those Tibetan serfs who suppose to take it up the arse from the Dalai Lama and his group of stooges? Many of them suffered because of that oppressive brain washing cult that killed them. So how come you conveniently erase that part of history for your weak arguments? Oh yeah...because you know nothing.
Sure, sure. It must have been only the close clique of the Dalai Lama that threw off the shackles of the Yuan and then the Qing and was responsible for all the uprisings since 1950. It was all Dalai according to your genius self. None of the Tibetan commoners had any desire to not be under the thumb of a foreign power. If you really think that, then why don't we find out EXACTLY how many Tibetans would prefer the evil oppressive Dalai Lama to the wondrous CCP. Or are you still too afraid to find out?

Bottom line is this: Tibet is NOT conquered land. North America, South America, and Australia and New Zealand are conquered land. You just simply don't want Tibetans to be a part of the PRC. Tibet and Tibetans history are being recorded and study far more aggressively than in any Western academia or even by Tibetan themselves. The Chinese Ministry of culture, history, sociology, anthropology, architecture, linguist, music, and language. As a result, this retains and sustain the culture of the Tibetans. Meanwhile Westerners are trying to spread their religious institutional beliefs through out the world and you are not concern about that? That tells me that your priority is messed up. That means you are just trolling to get China to be separated into many parts therefore weaker and submittal to your favorite whatever religious cult that you belong to.
Tibet is conquered land. It was conquered by the Mongols, then the Manchurians, then the PLA. This is a fact of history that (thankfully) does not depend on nerdraging ultranationalists' opinions. I don't have a firm stance on whether Tibet should be a part of the PRC; I have said this before but you were not listening due to your brainwashed indoctrination.
 
LOL tough thread

about a quarter of century ago I read a book by a Russian traveler who had sneaked into Lhasa, Tibet several years before the British forced their way in; from what I recall, it was "a journey back in time" even by the standards of Tsarist-Russian Siberia ... now I think I located the author
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until now I haven't heard of the National Geographic part though
 

solarz

Brigadier
Tibet is conquered land. It was conquered by the Mongols, then the Manchurians, then the PLA. This is a fact of history that (thankfully) does not depend on nerdraging ultranationalists' opinions. I don't have a firm stance on whether Tibet should be a part of the PRC; I have said this before but you were not listening due to your brainwashed indoctrination.

By your logic, Beijing is conquered land. It used to belong to the kingdom of Yan before being conquered by the kingdom of Qin. Later on, it was a part of the Khitan empire, then a part of the Jurchen empire, then the Mongols, before being conquered by the Ming. Then it was conquered by the Qing, followed by the ROC, followed by the Japanese, and finally by the PLA.

So what is that supposed to show?
 
By your logic, Beijing is conquered land. ...
nah, I looked at posts of
Iron Man
here and I think he tries to open the question of now-Tibet independence (I took interest because it's an issue here ... hard to believe, huh? I googled this like summary from Wed Oct 19, 2016 | 4:29am EDT
Czech politicians meet Dalai Lama in contrast to pro-China policy
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personally I'm not involved in the above Czech controversy: I don't know much more about Tibet than what I said above Today at 2:16 PM :)
and when the topic was brought up in the pub, I pointed out previous inconsistencies of Czech politicians (but Politics Is Never Consistent hahaha)
 
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solarz

Brigadier
nah, I looked at posts of
Iron Man
here and I think he tries to open the question of now-Tibet independence

He's trying to argue that Tibet was an "independent" state before being conquered by the "Chinese" at various stages in its history.

What he's ignoring is that China itself is a amalgamation of various cultures that have unified and fragmented repeatedly over the centuries. Being a frontier province, Tibet's role in Chinese history have paralled that of Xinjiang, Mongolia, and Northwestern China.
 
He's trying to argue that Tibet was an "independent" state before being conquered by the "Chinese" at various stages in its history.

What he's ignoring is that China itself is a amalgamation of various cultures that have unified and fragmented repeatedly over the centuries. Being a frontier province, Tibet's role in Chinese history have paralled that of Xinjiang, Mongolia, and Northwestern China.
I don't mean to distort your point ... but your post left me with an impression as if there were no Tibet, and only one China, over the timeframe you guys have been talking here which is more than one thousand years ... was my impression close (or completely off maybe: sorry then)?
 

solarz

Brigadier
Let me answer your question by posing one to you: have you ever heard of the novel The Man in the High Castle by Philip Dick? The Axis powers have won. America is ruled by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. More relevant to our discussion, China is ruled by Imperial Japan. Imperial Japan has a set of "laws and constitutions" for China and its people that are not exactly welcomed by Chinese people. But so what? They aren't starving. Imperial Japan is using ITS land (the land of China, which is now unambiguously and inseparably Japanese land) to provide for "whatever the citizens and people LIVING on that land needs". In such an instance, according to your logic, Chinese people should not be bitching and moaning about independence. Any such talk is secessionist. Chinese people aren't special; they should not have their own set of ways of doing things, they are no exception to Japanese laws and constitutions.

When the Japanese first occupied large swathes of northern China, most Chinese peasants didn't care. It didn't matter to them who was "emperor", for in their lifetime they had already experienced the Qing, various warlords, Yuan Shikai, and finally Jiang Jieshi.

What finally drew them to fight against the Japanese occupation was the invader's brutality.

If the Japanese had ruled wisely and consolidated their support in northern China, then yes, they could very well have become new rulers of China, at least in the north.

However, for various historical reasons, including culture and economics, the Japanese alienated most of the people in their occupied lands, and were driven away in the end.
 

solarz

Brigadier
It occurs to me that saying "if the Japanese had ruled benevolently" is like saying "if the Nazis hadn't killed millions of Jews".

The Nazis are defined by their evil acts, hypothesizing a benevolent Nazi regime basically amounts to imagining a entirely different political entity that has nothing in common with the Nazi we refer to, except in name.

Likewise, when we refer to the Japanese in the context of the Japanese invasion, we refer to the Japan that perpetrated innumerable brutalities. Not the Japan that sent envoys to learn from the Tang, nor the Japan that creates Playstations and anime, but the Japan that created Unit 731 and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians in Nanjing. To imagine *that* Japan as "benevolent" is an exercise in self-contradiction.
 
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