China's Greatest Fear: Dead and Buried Like the Soviet Union (Closed)

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Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
taxiya said:
A suggestion to anyone who still want to or think that you can argue with Iron Man.

I suggest that you use the specific historical term for the relevant state/entity. Do not use China or Chinese because its defination is ambiguet and fluid. You will fall into the trap of Iron Man as he can easily shift the poles (what is China, Han/Tibetan/Manchu/Mongol???). If you want to use one word to refer to all historical Chinese dynasties or polities, use 中国 instead of China. Because 中国 was used by various Chinese dynasties including Yuan and Qing for self-reference. We should shift the burden of clarification of terms and concepts to Iron Man.

My principle is that, if I play the game, I play by my terms, not others.
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What a ridiculous load of complete and hilariously pompous BS. This reflects both your woefully inadequate understanding of history and of the country of China itself as well as your poor reasoning skills; it has nothing to do with my use of the word China, which has been as consistent as the word has been throughout history.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Iron Man said:
And what about Japan? You conveniently failed to mention Japan, which conquered the entirety of Manchuria and significant parts of Eastern China, about as much territory as the Jurchens ever did. Sure, the Inner Mongolians are an ethnicity of China, but the Mongolians in Mongolia certainly are not Chinese and some of them would kill you just for calling them Chinese. These people are not Chinese just because you grandiosely waved a magic wand and called them Chinese. They certainly were not considered "Chinese" when they conquered China, and were not considered "Chinese" when they ruled China, and were not considered "Chinese" when they were expelled from China. You speak from the hindsight of history and have falsely redacted a Chinese identity into these people who in some cases never became Chinese and in other cases became Chinese only centuries later. You failed to understand history spectacularly.
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Japan was never recognized as a ruler of China. In fact, Japan itself had to set up the puppet state of Manchuria to legitimize their rule over NW China.

There is no contradiction between ethnic Mongolians in China believing themselves to be Chinese, and Mongolian citizens in Mongolia believing they are not Chinese. Nationality and ethnicity are two different issues, and they are not mutually exclusive as you portray them to be.

Ethnic Mongolians share the same history whether they are Chinese or Mongolian citizens, but history is not in a one-to-one relationship with national identity. There is nothing wrong with both China and Mongolia sharing the same portion of history. Who are you to say that Chinese Mongolians have to choose between their Mongolian history and their Chinese identity?
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Iron Man said:
I see, so if I have to keep you in chains for my personal security, then it is right and just that you are in chains. Got it. ROFLMAO
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You still don't get it. There is no "right" or "just" when it comes to security. When a state fails, people do what they need to do to survive. The entire purpose of a state is to provide the security apparatus necessary so that people can devote their energy to things beyond survival.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
Then you should also have no problem if Tibetan rebels "overthrow" China, either peaceably or violently.


China is currently the area encompassed by the PRC. Is it something else? It used to be the area encompassed by the Qing. Before that it was the area encompassed by the Ming, etc. etc. Is this concept too "Western" for you? LOLOLOLOL
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As I have said multiple times before, I have no problem of Borjigin rebels overthrowed Song so long as Kublai declared himself Emperor of China. That principle applies to anyone who has the ambition in uniting the whole land in ONE, Tibetan included.

But, if that Tibetan or Han (the Zheng family in Taiwan in 1600s) try to break away from the ONE, I do have problem with them, again regarless their ethnic background. I will support and have served the relevant dynasties in crashing them regardless the family name of the emperor, Borjijin or Asingiro, or Zhu.

I hope this is clear to you by now.

I will not use "China" as you choose to mess things up. In my way, I say this, the area of present day 中华人民共和国 was part of Qing, Ming empires etc. etc.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
taxiya said:
A suggestion to anyone who still want to or think that you can argue with Iron Man.

I suggest that you use the specific historical term for the relevant state/entity. Do not use China or Chinese because its defination is ambiguet and fluid. You will fall into the trap of Iron Man as he can easily shift the poles (what is China, Han/Tibetan/Manchu/Mongol???). If you want to use one word to refer to all historical Chinese dynasties or polities, use 中国 instead of China. Because 中国 was used by various Chinese dynasties including Yuan and Qing for self-reference. We should shift the burden of clarification of terms and concepts to Iron Man.

My principle is that, if I play the game, I play by my terms, not others.
Click to expand...

I do not believe that is necessary. Iron Man's entire argument has been based on redefining China to arbitrarily exclude a particular group, an argument that is illogical and does not stand up to scrutiny.
 
B

B.I.B.

Captain
taxiya said:
A suggestion to anyone who still want to or think that you can argue with Iron Man.

I suggest that you use the specific historical term for the relevant state/entity. Do not use China or Chinese because its defination is ambiguet and fluid. You will fall into the trap of Iron Man as he can easily shift the poles (what is China, Han/Tibetan/Manchu/Mongol???). If you want to use one word to refer to all historical Chinese dynasties or polities, use 中国 instead of China. Because 中国 was used by various Chinese dynasties including Yuan and Qing for self-reference. We should shift the burden of clarification of terms and concepts to Iron Man.

My principle is that, if I play the game, I play by my terms, not others.
Click to expand...

Im interested in your POV on the disputed territory with Korean nationalists that made up the ancient Kingdom of Goguryeo Part of which now forms part of Chinese territory
If I applied Iron Man's logic the people of Korean/Goguryeo heritage that live there may strongly object to being refered to as Chinese.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
solarz said:
I do not believe that is necessary. Iron Man's entire argument has been based on redefining China to arbitrarily exclude a particular group, an argument that is illogical and does not stand up to scrutiny.
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The problem is that "China" as in other Foreign forms (Kina, Chine, Chin) are all fluid and created by foreigners (this line of terms are from the old Persians referring the Qin Dynasty 2000 years ago). Outside "China", they never realy meant the same thing as "中国".
It is not really Iron Man redefining it, it was never the right defination to begin with.
 
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