Chinas best dynastic military?

During the Imjin war, Chinese and Korean artillery was definitely superior to the artillery the Portugese supplied to the Japanese. During the Qing, advisers to the Kangxi Emperor told him that the artillery that they made were superior to the barbarians. The monstrous "General" cannons used by the Ming in the Great Wall, has ballistics comparable to WWI artillery. As many as 3,400 cannons were located in all parts of the Great Wall, making it the Chinese Maginot line, only much longer.

However, by the Opium War, British steam driven warships were definitely outranging the Qing warjunks in gunfire. So sometime between the Opium War, and the beginning of the Qing Dynasty, the Europeans overtook the Chinese in the quality and technology of gunpowder making. My estimate would be sometime around the late 1700s.

It's interesting that Chinese knew about Japan for more than one thousand years, but except for the Mongol time, never wanted to conquer it. We have a historical distaste for the oceans. Ming had good cannons, but did not maintain a navy to project that power.

I 'm a chinese. I think that Han dynasty is the best .As well known ,sino's language is chinese(han-yu,汉语)；china's character: chinese(han-zi,汉字)；chinese called their hers: han-zi(汉子).Form Han dynasty, china defeated Hun(xiong-nu) and become the most powerful country in far-east until 1895.

I think the Yuan:
1. It defined China's present borders as a subset of it's immense borders.
2. It started globalization
3. It made Beijing (Khaanbalik or Dadu) the center of the world.
4. It brought together ALL of China's nationalities for the first time under
one central govt.
5. China's military might was the strongest in the whole medieval world.
6. It had great plans like cross canal systems, which the PRC is currently
revisiting (ie. the north south link with the yellow and yangze rivers)
7. It's legacies are the Qing and the present day PRC.

r's
Clive

I think the Yuan:
1. It defined China's present borders as a subset of it's immense borders.
2. It started globalization
3. It made Beijing (Khaanbalik or Dadu) the center of the world.
4. It brought together ALL of China's nationalities for the first time under
one central govt.
5. China's military might was the strongest in the whole medieval world.
6. It had great plans like cross canal systems, which the PRC is currently
revisiting (ie. the north south link with the yellow and yangze rivers)
7. It's legacies are the Qing and the present day PRC.

Click to expand...

The truth is.

1. China had its greatest extent under rhe Qianlong Emperor. This is sometime around Bonaparte's time, and it is in that reference why Napoleon called China a sleeping giant. The borders crossed into Siberia right up to Lake Baikal, the Amur river, owned much of Mongolia, and even Port Arthur. The area that was under Russian control north of Korea, yes, was even under the Manchu China.

2. Globalization started in the Tang Dynasty. Chang'an is the first true international capital since Rome and later Constantinople. Here there are even districts for Jews, Christians, Japanese, Arabs, and so on.

3. True. Not to mention the Yuan also established the Beijing dialect as the lingua standard for Chinese which holds even up today. Our current spoken Chinese is from Beijing. Prior to that, the standard tongue is based on a dialect spoken in Xian/Chang'an, and whose sounds are still preserved in Cantonese and Fujienese dialects and to a large extent, Japanese Kanji Kunyomi readings.

4. True, if you wish to include Mongolians, Turkish and Manchurians.

5. True. But Ming is apparently even stronger because the Ming is able to combine a new element---gunpowder into their arsenal. Ming China was the first country in the world to be openly using true gunpowder cannons as we know it. Not ballista or catapaults but true, wham bang set to ignite cannons.

6. Not true. Great Canal network started a millenia before in the Han and all to later to the Sui dynasties.

7. I think Yuan is the turn point in Chinese history because how it consolidated the present borders, how it established Beijing as the capital, and the Beijing tongue as the Chinese tongue. It made China more "East" centric towards Korea, Japan and Southeast Asia, when previous dynasties, starting from the Qin, made China more western centric, with its capital in present day Xian, where it looks more to the Mongols, Turkish, Afghans, proto-Russians, and even Indians and Persians as the line of culture and trade.

Hi Crobato
Thanks for your input . Couple of things I have to disagree though:
1. The Yuan or Mongol army did indeed used gunpowder, particularly so in
the invasion of Japan. Now german and czech historians are not discounting
the fact that artillery might have been used in the Battle of Liegnitz.

2. The Ming army particularly the cavalry had a lot of Mongol recruits, however, their leadership was weak. The Ming tried more than 3x to conquer the northern Yuan in Inner and Outer Mongolia, but failed . The climax of
which is the battle of Tumu wherein the Oirads defeated a Ming army
of 500,000 men taking emperor Ying Zong hostage and prisoner.

3. The Ming eventually lost control of southern Manchuria , Northern
Manchuria , from Jilin up to Vladivostok was beyond their reach. Nurgachi
defeated heavily in Liaosi. A Ming army of 200,000 was destroyed by the
manchus.

4. The Yuan was more west centric since it had links with the Ilkhanate
of Hulegu in Persia and the golden horde of Batu in Russia. Road and postal
systems were set up from Beijing , Kharakhorin all the way to Moscow, Kiev
Sarai(Saratov today), and parts of Persia , Chinese art became predominant
in Persia, during the 13-17th century . Persian metalwork and astronomy
also benefited China greatly.

5. The so called Ming fleet was actually built during the Yuan, Admiral
Zheng He was a Hui in former service with the Yuan.

6. The Ming, in my opinion, did not move China forward, it moved it backward.
It's failure to incorporate the Northern Yuan as well as it's failed policies
in Manchuria led to it's eventual demise.

r's
Clive

cliveersknell said:

Hi Crobato
Thanks for your input . Couple of things I have to disagree though:
1. The Yuan or Mongol army did indeed used gunpowder, particularly so in
the invasion of Japan. Now german and czech historians are not discounting
the fact that artillery might have been used in the Battle of Liegnitz.

Click to expand...

But they were not to the same extent as the Ming did, which built the General cannonsm and laid as many as 3,400 cannons along the Great Wall. The General cannon when its ballistic properites are computed by modern simulations, has a range and energy similar to cannons used during the American Civil War.

2. The Ming army particularly the cavalry had a lot of Mongol recruits, however, their leadership was weak. The Ming tried more than 3x to conquer the northern Yuan in Inner and Outer Mongolia, but failed . The climax of
which is the battle of Tumu wherein the Oirads defeated a Ming army
of 500,000 men taking emperor Ying Zong hostage and prisoner.

Click to expand...

That is not correct.

Ming Dynasty was weakened by fighting too many wars and by corruption that betrayed its own generals. For example, General Yu Quan defeated the Mongols when the Mongols reached 80km of Beijing. When the Zhentong Emperor regained the throne, he had Yu Quan executed.

Another excellent general was Qi Jiquang, who cleaned up Japanese pirates (well more like Chinese pirates using hired Japanese ronin) along the Chinese coast. Later, he was in charge of a major segment of the Great Wall and defeated every Mongol attempt to pass through it during his lifetime. His elite troops used something called a Chang Dao (Long Dao) which looked like they were copied from Japanese Nodachi, which is a very long sword. A frigate of the ROC Navy is named after him.

Yuan Chonghuan defeated both Nurhachi and his son Huang Taiji in seperate battles, both when being vastly outnumbered. But Yuan himself became a victim of eunuch backstabbing and as a result got executed unjustly. The death of Yuan Chonghuan was a major cause of the Ming Dynasty's fall since Huang Taiji even feared him.

The Ming also fought in the Imjin wars with their Korean allies, and managed to fight the Japanese into a bloody standstill and that eventually led to the Japanese withdrawal.

The Ming also had to fight numerous rebellions, one of which was successful enough to take Beijing. Manchus used this to their advantage.

4. The Yuan was more west centric since it had links with the Ilkhanate
of Hulegu in Persia and the golden horde of Batu in Russia. Road and postal
systems were set up from Beijing , Kharakhorin all the way to Moscow, Kiev
Sarai(Saratov today), and parts of Persia , Chinese art became predominant
in Persia, during the 13-17th century . Persian metalwork and astronomy
also benefited China greatly.

Click to expand...

True, but nothing like the Han to Tang period where Greek arts left by Alexander the Great in the Hindu Kush entered China, the Silk Road where Persian arts and horses entered China, or through the influx of Buddism from India, and the entry of Jews and even Nestorian Christians to China. The concept of the highly revered Buddist saint Guanyin (in Japanese, Kannon) came from images of the Virgin Mary brought by Christians along this route. The Song Dynasty's greatest poet was a man born in Central Asia.

5. The so called Ming fleet was actually built during the Yuan, Admiral
Zheng He was a Hui in former service with the Yuan.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Zheng He was born long after the Yuan Dynasty was gone. In fact, like six generations passed.

6. The Ming, in my opinion, did not move China forward, it moved it backward.
It's failure to incorporate the Northern Yuan as well as it's failed policies
in Manchuria led to it's eventual demise.

r's
Clive

Click to expand...

The Ming had many failings indeed, but the Qing Dynasty made it even more backward. For example, despite his military successes that brought China to its greatest extent, Qianlong Emperor's fascination with swords and hand combat, retarded China's early lead in gunpowder development in favor of returning to classical arms like swords. Surely, the swords made during the Qing Dynasty were among the best ever made in China and in fact around the world, prized by collectors, but at what price? China was decisively overtaken by the West in firearms development.

During the Imjin wars, the Ming cannons were superior even to the Portugeses muskets and artillery that were supplied to the Japanese. You can see that from this period, the Chinese were still superior in firearms development. By the time of the Opium Wars, steam powered British gunboats were outranging the warjunks in cannon fire.

Hi Crobato
Thanks very much for your replies:
1. At least now we are in agreement that the Yuan used artillery, albeit
with shorter range than the Ming.
2. The battle of Tumu really happened and the Ming emperor was a prisoner
of Esen Hongtaiji, Khan of the Oirads. Many history books cite this, my
favorite is Empire of the Steppes by Rene Grousset. Most public libraries
have this .
3. The Tang only traded with Middle/Near east the Byzantine empire, and
India. After their defeat by the Arabs in the Talas River, they were driven out
of Central asia, the Yuan on the other hand had links all the way to the
golden horde in Sarai (present day Saratov near Volgograd).
4. The Qing empire, was the only empire 2nd to the Yuan that effectively had the present day PRC borders as a subset. Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner/Outer Mongolia, Jilin/Liaoning/Heilongjiang , Yunnan, Qinghai , and Gansu and territories near Vladivostok and Tajikstan were firmly under Qing control.
No other dynasty except the Yuan had such extensive territories as the Qing.
5. Therefore the 2 greatest dynasties of China were not of Han origin
but of Mongol (Yuan) and Manchu ( Qing). Many historians in China,
and some in the west like my good friend Dr. Pamela Crosley ( author of
"The Manchus") are beginning to accept the Qing as a legacy of the Yuan.
After the death of Fuyin, Kangxi's dad, the dynasty was ruled by a Mongol
Keerqin woman named Buumbutai or in pinyin , Xiaozhuang. She brought
her grandson to be one of the greatest emperor's of China in the same league as Khubilai, but not in Chinggis' league.
r's
Clive

cliveersknell said:

Hi Crobato
Thanks very much for your replies:
1. At least now we are in agreement that the Yuan used artillery, albeit
with shorter range than the Ming.
2. The battle of Tumu really happened and the Ming emperor was a prisoner
of Esen Hongtaiji, Khan of the Oirads. Many history books cite this, my
favorite is Empire of the Steppes by Rene Grousset. Most public libraries
have this .

Click to expand...

Yes, but Esen Taiji in turn was defeated by General Yu Quan.

3. The Tang only traded with Middle/Near east the Byzantine empire, and
India. After their defeat by the Arabs in the Talas River, they were driven out
of Central asia, the Yuan on the other hand had links all the way to the
golden horde in Sarai (present day Saratov near Volgograd).

Click to expand...

Except that Yuan links to the West did not give much to China since every thing was Mongol controlled, and gravely damaged Middle Eastern cultures. Name me any significant cultural and religious contribution that came out of it.
Links between the West is not as rosy as you portray it to be, because of the rivalry among fellow Mongol hordes.

Name me any significant cultural interaction. I can name several from Han to Tang.

1. Roman Empire getting silk from China.
2. China getting Arabic steeds from the Middle East.
3. Arrival of Buddism from India to China.
4. Judaism coming to China.
5. Nestorian Christianity coming to China.
6. Introduction of Greek art into China.
7. Song's greatest poet was from Central Asia.

4. The Qing empire, was the only empire 2nd to the Yuan that effectively had the present day PRC borders as a subset. Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner/Outer Mongolia, Jilin/Liaoning/Heilongjiang , Yunnan, Qinghai , and Gansu and territories near Vladivostok and Tajikstan were firmly under Qing control.
No other dynasty except the Yuan had such extensive territories as the Qing.

Click to expand...

That is not true. The Yuan does not control territories belonging to other Mongol Khanate.

5. Therefore the 2 greatest dynasties of China were not of Han origin
but of Mongol (Yuan) and Manchu ( Qing). Many historians in China,
and some in the west like my good friend Dr. Pamela Crosley ( author of
"The Manchus") are beginning to accept the Qing as a legacy of the Yuan.
After the death of Fuyin, Kangxi's dad, the dynasty was ruled by a Mongol
Keerqin woman named Buumbutai or in pinyin , Xiaozhuang. She brought
her grandson to be one of the greatest emperor's of China in the same league as Khubilai, but not in Chinggis' league.
r's
Clive

Click to expand...

The two greatest dynasties of China was the Han and the Tang. Both dynasties have territory almost the size of current China, including as far west as Afghanistan, and far north as north of Korea.

Yuan offered little in technological innovation compared to what happened in the Ming for example. The giant Yongle bell for example, a massive 14 ton bell, is swung around a metal pin only a few inches wide and a meter long. And its been doing that for centuries. Which Mongol happen to provide the kidn of metallurgical technology that is almost right up to today's aeronautical standards.

The Yuan is among the shortest lived of dynasties. It is true that Yuan did a lot of work to improve China, but much of it, like the cultural contacts, has already been by the Sui and the Tang and furthered in the Song. Of the emperors, it seems only Kublai and the Renzhong Emperor are the only ones that are truly competent and sincere in improving the country; the rest are pretty much corrupt and incompetent. After only a century, the Yuan was overthrown, and in 1388, Chinese armies invaded Mongolia, won a massive decisive victory with 70,000 Mongols captured, and Chinggiz Khan's capital Karakhorum, razed to the ground completely.

The last Khan of the Mongols would fall to Huang Taiji, who would establish the Qing Dynasty.

As for the Qing, the Qing is among the worst militarily despite the achievements of the Qianlong Emperor. In any dynasty, China was never the technological inferior of its neighbors or of the West. But in the Qing Dynasty, you are marked with serious cultural and technological decline.

Hi Crobato,
At least we come to some agreement:
1. The Battle of Tumu did happen in 1449, it was a severe defeat for the Ming - 500,000 KIA or captured including YinZhong. Good thing was the evil
eunuch wang was among the killed.
2. Esen Hongtaiji, went over his head when he decided to go for Beijing.
He allowed Yu Qian to reconsolidate, and strenghten Beijing's defenses.
He also did not have proper siege equipment , and Beijing's walls are strong
and thick. Furthermore, the Ming also had heavy artillery.
3. Contributions the Yuan brought to China from the West :
a. Catholicism came to china - Links made with the Pope in Rome
b. Superior mechanics and hydraulics from Persia - if you notice, the
mangonels of the persians have one thing superior to the chinese one's
, they have reduction gears . Hydraulics was also used to irrigate land
from lakes thousands of feet above sea level, biggest accomplishment
was in Yunnan, when a middle eastern governor brought by Kublai made this happen.
c. Astronomy , algebra, optics, from the Middle east and Persia - Alhazen
discovered the laws of reflection and refraction centuries before Isaac Newton.
d.Metallurgy , particularly damascene technology developed in Damascus
, Syria for the creation of stainless steel blades and swords.
e. Architechture- The city of Beijing or Dadu was designed by an Arab and
Nepalese named Alginger - the big white dagoba in Beihai park, is his tomb.
f. Some aspects of western architechture also was brought into China,
recent excavations of Kublai's old summer capitol in Shangdu or Xanadu,
showed these. In Kharakhorin, there was a water fountain made from
gold which sprouted wine made by a Frank. Marco and Nicolo Polo
also brought Italian artists to China.

The Qing was not aware of the big revolutions in physics , chemistry,
and mathematics occuring in the west during the 16-19th centuries.
They did not know Newton, Laplace, Lagrange, Gauss, Volta, Joule,
Nernst, Lavosier, Faraday, etc..
They were too involved in looking inward and rested on their laurels.
A significant thing was brought up by Dr. Crosely:
1. The Qing defeated the Russians initially
2. They sent an embassy team to visit St. Petersburg and onthe way
back Constantinople. This was during the reign of Czar Peter the great,
they created the wrong and false conception that Constantinople was
the most advanced city in the West, they were not aware that the Ottoman
Empire was also undergoing stagnation.
3. When MacCarthey visited China, the Qing showed no interest at all
in studying the steam ships that took him to China
These led to the Qing demise in the 19th century
r's
Clive