Liberator is smart enough to avoid Yuan, but if it's included, I'll rate it above all. After all, nomads are the most destructive force in ancient times, the worst of which, Mongol, has conquered most of the worlds known to it, burned down cities after cities, and left no living things behind. The mobility of its troops wasn't rivaled by anything in its time. The use of canons made Mongolians invincible against the walls of European castles. Crossbows were just another nightmare of both the soldiers of the east and their western counterparts. So the entire world fell victim of this fearsome race growing up on horsebacks. The only eastern nation spared from this disaster is Japan, saved by Typhoon. Yuan definitely outpowered any nation in its time. However, if the naval force is under inspection, I'll vote for Ming, which held the strongest fleets before the rise of Great Britain. Though weak in land warfares, Ming has demonstrated its ability to lauch global expeditions and project troops to other parts of the world and its warships outclassed those of the West. In countless conflicts, Ming navy has proven as tough as it looks. Personally, I like Tang military the best not only because it performed some of the most incredible military actions (such as attacking a fortress hidden on the top of a snow mountain), also because it maintained a formidile regional influence from Xi'an to the boundary of Persia. I used to visit a ruin of Tang fortress in Xinjiang, which resides in the middle of two converging rivers. The fortress backed to the cliff faces the plain. If the troops were released, there would be nothing to stop them. This might explain why there are so many Tang relics on the land currently populated largely by Muslims. Tang's downfall is the result of its political system failing to adapt to the size of its territory, yet its military is definitely one of the best seen to China.
Chinas best dynastic military?
- Thread starter Liberator
- Start date
Tang is a very interesting dynasty because of its Turkish/Arabic influences. If you note many of the paintings and drawings of Tang women, many are wearing midrib clothing with their bellies exposed. or wear loose trousers. Some point in time from Tang to Sung, Chinese moved from sitting in the floor like Japanese did, to sitting on tables and chairs, which is from Middle East influence.
sinowarrior
Junior Member
What is the definition of strongest military? Do we use technology standard or victory records as the bases for comparison? If we use technology, well apart from Qing, all other dynasty enjoyed a technology advantage compared to their neighbors. As for military record, Han or Qin should be ranked as best, Yuan dynasty did not fought any impressive battles, and Genhis is Mongol and in that time, his achievement can not be treated as part of Chinese military achievement.
Roger604
Senior Member
My two cents.
The problem is that you are "averaging" the prestige of each dynasty over time and also among different categories. If you parse it out it's much better.
1) Tang was the most interesting in terms of culture, civilization, etc. Maps that don't show the tributary states paint a misleading picture because nearly all the kingdoms around Tang itself were tributary states. Tang's influence went far and wide.
2) Kublai Khan's Yuan was the most powerful China ever was. It was by far the most powerful part of by far the most powerful empire the world has ever seen, that towered over all others anywhere close to it in geography or time. Chinese should be proud of Kublai Khan.
3) After Kublai, the Mongols because more of an occupation force that milked China instead of gaining prestige for it.
4) Qing is just so-so all around. It's border victories are misleading because the nation paid an extremely high price domestically. The long term effect of which caused the Qin to be unremarkable just a few Emperors after the first. The most disastrous was the decision to forgo firearms, meanwhile Europe was blossoming.
5) Ming was great at first for all the reasons mentioned, including China's only real historical fleet. But China's long stagnation and decline was caused by Ming corruption, not by the Qing (though they keep getting blamed for it). The sinking of the Ming fleet was the beginning of the end, even though the process took hundreds of years.
WOW! I was not aware of this! Maybe that is why some Japanese say Japan is the true inheritor of classical Chinese civilization. They say classical Chinese civilization ceased upon Yuan. And yes, there is a clear break after Yuan.
A last point, nobody talks about themselves by referring to a dynasty. Like I'm ethnically Qin or ethnically Western Han or Sung! Some dynastic names are picked as representatives of the continuous civilization -- in particular, Han and Tang. And nowadays a lot of people are just mixed all over, north, central, south and west.
The problem is that you are "averaging" the prestige of each dynasty over time and also among different categories. If you parse it out it's much better.
1) Tang was the most interesting in terms of culture, civilization, etc. Maps that don't show the tributary states paint a misleading picture because nearly all the kingdoms around Tang itself were tributary states. Tang's influence went far and wide.
2) Kublai Khan's Yuan was the most powerful China ever was. It was by far the most powerful part of by far the most powerful empire the world has ever seen, that towered over all others anywhere close to it in geography or time. Chinese should be proud of Kublai Khan.
3) After Kublai, the Mongols because more of an occupation force that milked China instead of gaining prestige for it.
4) Qing is just so-so all around. It's border victories are misleading because the nation paid an extremely high price domestically. The long term effect of which caused the Qin to be unremarkable just a few Emperors after the first. The most disastrous was the decision to forgo firearms, meanwhile Europe was blossoming.
5) Ming was great at first for all the reasons mentioned, including China's only real historical fleet. But China's long stagnation and decline was caused by Ming corruption, not by the Qing (though they keep getting blamed for it). The sinking of the Ming fleet was the beginning of the end, even though the process took hundreds of years.
WOW! I was not aware of this! Maybe that is why some Japanese say Japan is the true inheritor of classical Chinese civilization. They say classical Chinese civilization ceased upon Yuan. And yes, there is a clear break after Yuan.
A last point, nobody talks about themselves by referring to a dynasty. Like I'm ethnically Qin or ethnically Western Han or Sung! Some dynastic names are picked as representatives of the continuous civilization -- in particular, Han and Tang. And nowadays a lot of people are just mixed all over, north, central, south and west.
The Qing loved swords. In fact, there is no other time in history where China actually made better swords and they were even the equal to better of that of the Japanese and Middle East. Unfortunately this also caused China to regress in fire arms development.
The Ming is the opposite. Because of fire arms development, Ming sword quality actually declined, since priority is not there. To some extent some say a Ming general even imported lots of Japanese swords which he used effectively. Ming's firearms development was in fact, superior to the West at that time, and it had ships packed with cannon. Maybe the Zheng He treasure ships are overrated, we should look more into the Ming War junks as they are in fact, the true expression of Chinese naval power.
At one time, Koxinga had hundreds of war junks in his command, so the guy was literally a sea power of his own.
Japanese complain Chinese began adopting barbarian customs, and forsake their own culture. Chinese soldiers began wearing trousers at Warring States period, when King of Zhou copied Hun cavalry. But wearing pajamas and trousers become commonplace with civilian population around the Yuan, thanks to the Mongols who dont' dress up in robes like pre Yuan Chinese did.
Thus, Mongols have a major influence in the way Chinese dress, abandoning the robes style in the Sung or the arabic style from the Middle East worn popularly by the Tang.
Some trivia.
Characters in the Romance of the Three Kingdom books are often portrayed not in the proper historical costumes but in Ming Era armor, because the books themselves were written during the Ming period. Thus popular images of personages like Cao Cao, Guan Yu, and Lu Bu are not historically correct in the time period, since they are wearing Ming armor.
Another myth is the use of Chinese Da Dao sword, which is a broadsword. This sword is never used in ancient or medieval China, but in WWII when hacking Japanese. Still this sword is portrayed in movies, paintings and manhua.
Truth is, traditional Chinese dao looks like Japanese sword but straight up to the Tang period. The so called sabres we see in movies are actually introduced by the Qing, and used from that period on. So people in the Three Kingdoms period dont' wield sabres and broadswords.
It is so amazing to see how the media erroneously portray ancient Chinese warfare.
The Ming is the opposite. Because of fire arms development, Ming sword quality actually declined, since priority is not there. To some extent some say a Ming general even imported lots of Japanese swords which he used effectively. Ming's firearms development was in fact, superior to the West at that time, and it had ships packed with cannon. Maybe the Zheng He treasure ships are overrated, we should look more into the Ming War junks as they are in fact, the true expression of Chinese naval power.
At one time, Koxinga had hundreds of war junks in his command, so the guy was literally a sea power of his own.
Japanese complain Chinese began adopting barbarian customs, and forsake their own culture. Chinese soldiers began wearing trousers at Warring States period, when King of Zhou copied Hun cavalry. But wearing pajamas and trousers become commonplace with civilian population around the Yuan, thanks to the Mongols who dont' dress up in robes like pre Yuan Chinese did.
Thus, Mongols have a major influence in the way Chinese dress, abandoning the robes style in the Sung or the arabic style from the Middle East worn popularly by the Tang.
Some trivia.
Characters in the Romance of the Three Kingdom books are often portrayed not in the proper historical costumes but in Ming Era armor, because the books themselves were written during the Ming period. Thus popular images of personages like Cao Cao, Guan Yu, and Lu Bu are not historically correct in the time period, since they are wearing Ming armor.
Another myth is the use of Chinese Da Dao sword, which is a broadsword. This sword is never used in ancient or medieval China, but in WWII when hacking Japanese. Still this sword is portrayed in movies, paintings and manhua.
Truth is, traditional Chinese dao looks like Japanese sword but straight up to the Tang period. The so called sabres we see in movies are actually introduced by the Qing, and used from that period on. So people in the Three Kingdoms period dont' wield sabres and broadswords.
It is so amazing to see how the media erroneously portray ancient Chinese warfare.
cliveersknell
New Member
Hi Crobato
Thanks for the interesting info.
Japs failed to see one thing though, the more mixtures a race have, the
more resilient it becomes. Like the USA.
This is why the Japanese had a very difficult time dealing even with Guomindang
CHina, which was considered weak. The battle of Taierzhuang was testimony to this.
In the olympic competitions, when the PRC came into the limelight, the Japanese
were beaten really badly.
The present day chinese , with many turkic/mongol elements in his or her
genes, particularly the northern ones, have developed a street smartness
that is as good or even better than the street smartness seen here in the USA.
One thing my dad used to tell me, was the Japanese never thought that we
could put B-25 bombers on carriers and launch an attack on Tokyo in
broad daylight.
If you follow through the battle of midway, we were almost beat from
beginning to near end, but Capt.McCluskey's Hell divers spotted
4 big Japanese carriers, and "scratched" them ! The fun thing, was the carriers
were in the process of preparing their planes for the next assault, their
decks were filled with aviation fuel, ammo, bombs, and torpedoes.
When Mao's red army fought the Japanese, the Japanese were literally beaten
especially in the campaign in Taihang Mts.
The Japanese thought they could fool the Mongols in Inner Mongolia to their
cause, but it was the strong street smartness of those mongols that spotted
the Japanese lying through their teeth, and eventually many left and joined
Mao's 8th route army under a Mongol general Ulanhu.
When Mao's Volunteers met our army in North Korea, we were suprised
about the way they fought. MacArthur claimed that China was a nation
of laundrymen, and had no fighting prowess whatsoever, how suprised was
he when he got beaten and was forced to retreat- the longest retreat
in US military history. My uncle served in Korea under MacArthur and Ridgway
and denied the stories about human wave attacks, the chinese executed
their attacks very cunningly, using great stealth and surprise. The ambushes
were well planned and superbly executed, were it not for our airpower,
we might have lost the Korean war altoghether. Tactics used by Mao or his
people's war concept, was not too different than tactics used by the Xiongnu and Mongols.
a. Feigned retreats to lure the enemy, and sudden counterattacks to catch him offguard.
b. close reconaissance and data gathering
c. hitting the enemy where he is weak - supply lines etc..
d. infiltration
e. effective ambushes
This was exactly the way, a Ming army of 500,000 was destroyed at Tumu.
The battle did not happen in one day, it took quite a while to cut up and destroy this army piece by piece.
r's
Clive
Thanks for the interesting info.
Japs failed to see one thing though, the more mixtures a race have, the
more resilient it becomes. Like the USA.
This is why the Japanese had a very difficult time dealing even with Guomindang
CHina, which was considered weak. The battle of Taierzhuang was testimony to this.
In the olympic competitions, when the PRC came into the limelight, the Japanese
were beaten really badly.
The present day chinese , with many turkic/mongol elements in his or her
genes, particularly the northern ones, have developed a street smartness
that is as good or even better than the street smartness seen here in the USA.
One thing my dad used to tell me, was the Japanese never thought that we
could put B-25 bombers on carriers and launch an attack on Tokyo in
broad daylight.
If you follow through the battle of midway, we were almost beat from
beginning to near end, but Capt.McCluskey's Hell divers spotted
4 big Japanese carriers, and "scratched" them ! The fun thing, was the carriers
were in the process of preparing their planes for the next assault, their
decks were filled with aviation fuel, ammo, bombs, and torpedoes.
When Mao's red army fought the Japanese, the Japanese were literally beaten
especially in the campaign in Taihang Mts.
The Japanese thought they could fool the Mongols in Inner Mongolia to their
cause, but it was the strong street smartness of those mongols that spotted
the Japanese lying through their teeth, and eventually many left and joined
Mao's 8th route army under a Mongol general Ulanhu.
When Mao's Volunteers met our army in North Korea, we were suprised
about the way they fought. MacArthur claimed that China was a nation
of laundrymen, and had no fighting prowess whatsoever, how suprised was
he when he got beaten and was forced to retreat- the longest retreat
in US military history. My uncle served in Korea under MacArthur and Ridgway
and denied the stories about human wave attacks, the chinese executed
their attacks very cunningly, using great stealth and surprise. The ambushes
were well planned and superbly executed, were it not for our airpower,
we might have lost the Korean war altoghether. Tactics used by Mao or his
people's war concept, was not too different than tactics used by the Xiongnu and Mongols.
a. Feigned retreats to lure the enemy, and sudden counterattacks to catch him offguard.
b. close reconaissance and data gathering
c. hitting the enemy where he is weak - supply lines etc..
d. infiltration
e. effective ambushes
This was exactly the way, a Ming army of 500,000 was destroyed at Tumu.
The battle did not happen in one day, it took quite a while to cut up and destroy this army piece by piece.
r's
Clive
Last edited by a moderator:
goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Clive makes some good points. However I do not agree with the comparison with Mongols. Mongols excelled in the open plains, by using their superior mobility very well compared to any other army of that time. Korea was mountain warfare, which communists had practiced since 1934.
In my opinion the biggest thing ccp did for Chinese military prowness, was to instill incredible determination during the attack. GMT were determined defenders but could not sustain their attacks. CCP troops, when the objective had been chosen, would push forward without concern for their individual safety. This style is why we get stories about "human waves". But it is not "dumb" at all, because the collective speed and firepower is maximized through the soldiers' individual sacrifice. In fact CCP preserved its strength very carefully and used intelligent tactics as Clive described, but made maximum effort at critical junctions. Overall Chinese would suffer far less casualties than South Koreans, Indians, and Vietnamese (even in a sloppy war). Against USA the loss ratio was similar to Soviet vs German ratio, even though Chinese had no mechanization at all.
In my opinion the biggest thing ccp did for Chinese military prowness, was to instill incredible determination during the attack. GMT were determined defenders but could not sustain their attacks. CCP troops, when the objective had been chosen, would push forward without concern for their individual safety. This style is why we get stories about "human waves". But it is not "dumb" at all, because the collective speed and firepower is maximized through the soldiers' individual sacrifice. In fact CCP preserved its strength very carefully and used intelligent tactics as Clive described, but made maximum effort at critical junctions. Overall Chinese would suffer far less casualties than South Koreans, Indians, and Vietnamese (even in a sloppy war). Against USA the loss ratio was similar to Soviet vs German ratio, even though Chinese had no mechanization at all.
Mongol influence in dress also went to the Annamese, aka Vietnamese. This is what you popularly see how Vietnamese women are dressed, whereas their Malaysian and Thai neighbors dress remarkably differently.
Mongols and Turks didn't excel much against jungle and mountain warfare, and always had problem fighting southern peoples. Their cavalry advantage is negated in rugged terrain, and humid conditions play havoc against laminar constructed bows, because the glues tend to become soft at high humidity. They are also more vulnerable to tropical diseases, etc,.
As horseriders that eat a lot of meat, physique of northerners have problems against southern peoples, who have to rely more on their feet rather than horse. This forces them to become physically strong for their weight. Microevolutionary traits adjust physical stature of people living in warmer climates to be smaller, so they have a better surface to weight ratio, which allows them to cool their bodies better and suffer less from heat. Since they have less average weight, they also have stronger physical endurance in marching and climbing with less fat in their bodies (there is more fat in northerner bodies to keep the heat). One thing I learned about Navy SEALs is that they are physically not your Rambo type, but they have physiques more similar to marathon runners.
Thus when cavalry advantage is negated, the infantry advantage goes to the southern peoples. It took two generations before the Mongols conquered the southern Sung Dynasty, and had many reverses in Annam and Thailand. Even when "conquered" their hold in southern China was the most tenous, and southern China was the first to be lost by the Yuan. LIkewise, it took at least two generations before the Qing managed to subdue Ming strongholds in the south.
The crossbow invention of China had its roots in similar devices employed by southern tribes.
The war tactics and strategies of the southerners are no less embodied by the Art of War of Sun Tzu. Regardless of who in the Sun clan actually authored it, the Sun clan is prominent clan of the Wu kingdom, whose homeland is around the Zhejiang region, including modern Shanghai and Ningbo. Wu is regarded as "south", and you can remember this kingdom both in the Warring States and Three Kingdoms period. For that matter, Shanghai dialect is today also referred to as Wu dialect.
One can get the perception that guerilla war and tactics seem like a strategy bred to these peoples. Vietnamese themselves were descended from aboringines that once lived in Fujian province (Min peoples.) The word "Viet" came from the word "Yuet", which once described a kingdom south of Wu. Both Yuet and Wu battled for supremacy in the south, pulled every sort of strategy and tactics against each other. The Yuet extended all the way to Vietnam, and the word Vietnam is Yuet + Nam (south in Chinese). For this reason Cantonese dialect is called Yuet dialect and has sounds similar to the Austoasiatic languages.
From this legacy of history, southern peoples seem bred with guerilla strategies bred to their culture of warfare, with decided effects even in modern warfare.
Back in the Three Kingdoms period, the Wu kingdom were also water farers. Because of their amphibious skills, they were among the first peoples in the world to form the "Marines" concept. The original concept of a Marine is a soldier who is adept in fighting on ships and on the coasts. For that reason, Wu's Marines were conditioned not to be sea sick.
The dividing line between North and Southern China is the Yangtze river. The width of this river is so vast, its almost like a sea. One of the most decisive battles between the Northern and Southern cultures is the Battle of Red Cliffs also called the Battle of Chi-Bi. This took place in the Three Kingdoms period, and so remains highly memorable of the allure the Three Kingdoms period has with the peoples today.
Here, Cao Cao, leading the kingdom of Wei, prepares to mount an assault against the kingdom of Wu led by Sun Quan. The Wei has both the material and numerical advantages, since the Wei conquered much of the north. For this reason the Wei had peoples like the Xiao Pei, which is related to Jurchen/Manchu, or better yet, proto-Jurchen, and elite Hunnic or Xiong Nu (proto-Turkic, proto-Mongolic) cavalry.
The problem Cao Cao had, was to bring his vast army across the Yangtze. He built a vast fleet of ships, then tried to convert his army to a marine corps in such a short period of time. He then quickly encountered many problems. His army was quick to get sea sick and not just the men, but the horses too, which often panic.
The Wu on the other hand, were bred for fighting in the water. Wu commandos launched raids against the Wei fleet, burning many ships, thern harassed the Wei army all along the river's coast thorugh amphibious operations. Despite the Wu forces being vastly outnumbered, it turned into a nasty rout for the Wei. It became worst when Wei soldiers don't know how to swim, and so they drowned in large numbers. Disease didn't help things further.
The battle is decisive in a way, that it formalized the split of China into the Three Kingdoms, and put a stop to Cao Cao's plans to unify China under the Wei banner.
This battle by the way, is being turned into a movie by John Woo, set to be released in 2008. Some of the cast includes Zhao Wei, Tony Leung and Takeshi Kaneshiro.
China's culture of warfare is crossbred from both northern and southern roots. from the north, the emphasis in mobility, striking power, reach, and force concentration. From the south, assymetry, tenacity, terrain, tempo and endurance.
Mongols and Turks didn't excel much against jungle and mountain warfare, and always had problem fighting southern peoples. Their cavalry advantage is negated in rugged terrain, and humid conditions play havoc against laminar constructed bows, because the glues tend to become soft at high humidity. They are also more vulnerable to tropical diseases, etc,.
As horseriders that eat a lot of meat, physique of northerners have problems against southern peoples, who have to rely more on their feet rather than horse. This forces them to become physically strong for their weight. Microevolutionary traits adjust physical stature of people living in warmer climates to be smaller, so they have a better surface to weight ratio, which allows them to cool their bodies better and suffer less from heat. Since they have less average weight, they also have stronger physical endurance in marching and climbing with less fat in their bodies (there is more fat in northerner bodies to keep the heat). One thing I learned about Navy SEALs is that they are physically not your Rambo type, but they have physiques more similar to marathon runners.
Thus when cavalry advantage is negated, the infantry advantage goes to the southern peoples. It took two generations before the Mongols conquered the southern Sung Dynasty, and had many reverses in Annam and Thailand. Even when "conquered" their hold in southern China was the most tenous, and southern China was the first to be lost by the Yuan. LIkewise, it took at least two generations before the Qing managed to subdue Ming strongholds in the south.
The crossbow invention of China had its roots in similar devices employed by southern tribes.
The war tactics and strategies of the southerners are no less embodied by the Art of War of Sun Tzu. Regardless of who in the Sun clan actually authored it, the Sun clan is prominent clan of the Wu kingdom, whose homeland is around the Zhejiang region, including modern Shanghai and Ningbo. Wu is regarded as "south", and you can remember this kingdom both in the Warring States and Three Kingdoms period. For that matter, Shanghai dialect is today also referred to as Wu dialect.
One can get the perception that guerilla war and tactics seem like a strategy bred to these peoples. Vietnamese themselves were descended from aboringines that once lived in Fujian province (Min peoples.) The word "Viet" came from the word "Yuet", which once described a kingdom south of Wu. Both Yuet and Wu battled for supremacy in the south, pulled every sort of strategy and tactics against each other. The Yuet extended all the way to Vietnam, and the word Vietnam is Yuet + Nam (south in Chinese). For this reason Cantonese dialect is called Yuet dialect and has sounds similar to the Austoasiatic languages.
From this legacy of history, southern peoples seem bred with guerilla strategies bred to their culture of warfare, with decided effects even in modern warfare.
Back in the Three Kingdoms period, the Wu kingdom were also water farers. Because of their amphibious skills, they were among the first peoples in the world to form the "Marines" concept. The original concept of a Marine is a soldier who is adept in fighting on ships and on the coasts. For that reason, Wu's Marines were conditioned not to be sea sick.
The dividing line between North and Southern China is the Yangtze river. The width of this river is so vast, its almost like a sea. One of the most decisive battles between the Northern and Southern cultures is the Battle of Red Cliffs also called the Battle of Chi-Bi. This took place in the Three Kingdoms period, and so remains highly memorable of the allure the Three Kingdoms period has with the peoples today.
Here, Cao Cao, leading the kingdom of Wei, prepares to mount an assault against the kingdom of Wu led by Sun Quan. The Wei has both the material and numerical advantages, since the Wei conquered much of the north. For this reason the Wei had peoples like the Xiao Pei, which is related to Jurchen/Manchu, or better yet, proto-Jurchen, and elite Hunnic or Xiong Nu (proto-Turkic, proto-Mongolic) cavalry.
The problem Cao Cao had, was to bring his vast army across the Yangtze. He built a vast fleet of ships, then tried to convert his army to a marine corps in such a short period of time. He then quickly encountered many problems. His army was quick to get sea sick and not just the men, but the horses too, which often panic.
The Wu on the other hand, were bred for fighting in the water. Wu commandos launched raids against the Wei fleet, burning many ships, thern harassed the Wei army all along the river's coast thorugh amphibious operations. Despite the Wu forces being vastly outnumbered, it turned into a nasty rout for the Wei. It became worst when Wei soldiers don't know how to swim, and so they drowned in large numbers. Disease didn't help things further.
The battle is decisive in a way, that it formalized the split of China into the Three Kingdoms, and put a stop to Cao Cao's plans to unify China under the Wei banner.
This battle by the way, is being turned into a movie by John Woo, set to be released in 2008. Some of the cast includes Zhao Wei, Tony Leung and Takeshi Kaneshiro.
China's culture of warfare is crossbred from both northern and southern roots. from the north, the emphasis in mobility, striking power, reach, and force concentration. From the south, assymetry, tenacity, terrain, tempo and endurance.
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goldenpanda
Banned Idiot
Thanks for the great info. Look forward to the movie.
In terms of northern versus southern tactics, it should be based on psychology rather than physique. The northern psychology is systematic and operational--for example the manchu banners had incredible mobilization and cross country ability. The southern psychology seeks cleverness and endurance. My guess is it has to do with the amount and type of terrain they each have to deal with, with the spacious north requiring more spatial thinking.
In terms of northern versus southern tactics, it should be based on psychology rather than physique. The northern psychology is systematic and operational--for example the manchu banners had incredible mobilization and cross country ability. The southern psychology seeks cleverness and endurance. My guess is it has to do with the amount and type of terrain they each have to deal with, with the spacious north requiring more spatial thinking.